Ep. 142/ Secrets to Negotiating Raises, Promotions and Rates for Women: Meggie Palmer of PepTalkHer
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I had an educational and energizing chat with the incredible Meggie Palmer - a powerhouse, dedicated to helping women ask for what they deserve—whether it’s a bigger paycheck, an overdue promotion, or higher rates for self-employed folks. Her company PepTalkHer is all about closing the gender pay gap and empowering professionals to advocate for themselves.This episode is packed with actionable wisdom, so grab your pen!
During our conversation, Meggie explained how women can flip the script when it comes to negotiations, how to use leverage, and how to prepare your strongest arguments to earn more money. She shared her game-changing “3W Technique” (Wish, Want, Walk)—a method that helps professionals hone in on their ideal goal, their acceptable middle ground, and their dealbreaker. It was such a great reminder of the power of preparation and entering negotiations with evidence of your worth in hand. We also talked about embracing the wins and letting go of that negativity bias that makes us dwell on the bad over the good - and using that power to negotiate! Honestly, this is something we all need to hear loud and clear! Taking time to recognize and celebrate our successes, no matter how small, can completely rewire our mindset and positively impact how we show up in work negotiations and beyond. She has specific tips for self-employed folks like how to present your rates and what Meggie’s energy and insights were electric, and I know so many of you will leave this episode feeling ready to negotiate like a boss. If you’ve followed my journey, you know I’ve been on a mission to help all of you rockstars out there conquer fear and imposter syndrome to build a successful, fulfilling life on your own terms Catch the full episode and prepare to grab notebooks for all Meggie’s nuggets of wisdom!
You will learn:
How to negotiate - 12:27
How and why we stew on negative inputs and how to readjust - 14:18
Document positives - 15:07
How we can rewire our brain and shift the neuroplasticity - 20:22
How to use leverage - of a potential job or other options - 23:05
What self employed people should do to negotiate with clients or speaker fees - 33:23
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Meggie Palmer is a globally renowned speaker, facilitator, and executive coach known for her impactful work in supporting the diversification of leadership talent and empowering professionals to navigate their pathways to success. With a client list that includes Fortune 100 companies such as Microsoft, DocuSign, and JP Morgan, Meggie’s expertise has been recognized by prestigious publications like Vogue Magazine and Forbes, cementing her status as a confidence creator. In her former life, she was a foreign correspondent for the BBC, CNBC & others. She’s a proud Aussie who now calls NYC home.
You will learn:
How to negotiate - 12:27
How and why we stew on negative inputs and how to readjust - 14:18
Document positives - 15:07
How we can rewire our brain and shift the neuroplasticity - 20:22
How to use leverage - of a potential job or other options - 23:05
What self employed people should do to negotiate with clients or speaker fees - 33:23
Quotes from our guest:
“So when you're negotiating, we always want to maximize your monetary compensation and then you want to move to non-monetary stuff. And one of the things that I always knew that I could negotiate on was annual leave.” - 13:08
“One of the things that I always suggest people do is kind of come armed to those conversations with the evidence basically and the proof so that you can kind of document that to your boss or your superior to outline why you are deserving. Yes, there are rules and there's always exceptions to the rule. They're not going to tell you that there's exceptions to the rule, but I'm going to tell you right now, there is always an exception to the rule.” - 15:07
“I will say to that, to your point around leverage, the leverage, firstly, you should be negotiating every single year because the reality is that a squeaky wheel gets the oil.” - 26:35
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Kim (00:02):
Meggie Palmer joins us. She focuses on helping women get paid more and promoted faster. Her negotiation tips are amazing for people inside corporate and outside. She shares her story of how she found out her male peers were getting paid significantly more and her battle over that. She's built Pep Talker community and she's a speaker and executive coach. She'll teach you how to ask for more money, how to negotiate, how to counter a no, we don't have money for that, what to ask for instead. And we talk about how our brains are wired to see the negative and how we can undo that. And for those self-employed folks, she shares her three W technique to negotiate.
Meggie (00:38):
I always suggest people do is kind of come armed to those conversations with the evidence basically and the proof so that you can kind of document that to your boss or your superior to kind of outline why you are deserving. Yes, there are rules and there's always exceptions to the rule.
Kim (00:56):
Welcome to the Exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Do you work for yourself and want to supercharge your business while still having fun? Well, this is your go-to podcast, part MBA Part Cheer Squad. Every week I'll be joined by top business owners who share the secrets to their success. After I found myself working during childbirth true story, I quit my executive media job to bet on myself fighting the fear and imposter syndrome to eventually earn six awards, an in-demand speaking career and features in Fast Company and Business Insider. Now I'm here to celebrate all you rock stars betting on yourself, and I want to help you win. Tune in every Wednesday to hear from remarkable founders and don't miss our Solo Friday episodes, a treasure trove of video and podcasting mini masterclasses with me. Exit the grind, enter success on your own terms. Don't forget to subscribe today and grab my free video tips at my website, kimrittberg.com. Meggie Palmer is a globally renowned speaker, facilitator, and executive coach known for her impactful work in supporting the diversification of leadership talent and empowering professionals to navigate their pathways to success with a client list that includes Fortune 100 companies such as Microsoft DocuSign and JP Morgan. Meggie's expertise has been recognized by prestigious publications like Vogue Magazine and Forbes cementing her status as a confidence creator in her former life. She was a foreign correspondent for the B-B-C-C-N-B-C and others, and she's a proud Aussie who calls New York City home. Alright, Meggie, thanks for joining us.
Meggie (02:29):
Thanks for having me. I'm stoked to be here.
Kim (02:31):
So fun fact for the audience. I lived in Australia, I lived in Bondi Beach for a year, a year after college I moved there and honestly, Australia's so amazing. Sydney, Australia has the best of New York and LA combined. So Meggie, what brought you to New York?
Meggie (02:45):
Well, I love hearing that you had the pleasure of living in Bondi. I lived there for I guess maybe seven or eight years myself. I loved it. Yeah, why did I leave the beach in the Bondi to Bronte walk an amazing shrimp and sushi for New York City. Not that the shrimp and sushi isn't great here too, but sometimes I do miss the Aussie food. It's a long story, Kim. I had lived around the world in my work as a journalist. I loved living abroad and getting to know different people, different cultures, and I went back to Australia for an amazing job and then I just kind of was getting itchy feet. Honestly. I love Australia, I love all my family and friends there still, and I go back every year. I just wanted another adventure. And so my partner and I were sort of tossing out would we move to SF or New York City? And I wanted to move to San Francisco because I have an app and I was into the tech vibe, but he had a dream to live in New York. And so we compromised and I'm thrilled that we ended up here. I love it. So we've been here eight years now, but I've still got a thick Aussie accent.
Kim (03:37):
You got to hold onto that. The Aussie accent's so good, and by the way, it makes me laugh. You're like in 20 years ago or in the nineties or whatever, the whole Australian thing was like throw another shrimp on the Barbie and you're like, I miss the shrimp.
Meggie (03:48):
Oh my God, I'm caricature. I know I don't wrestle crocodiles, but I do love shrimp on the Barbie, so
Kim (03:54):
It's delicious. I'm not going to hit on that. So Meggie, talk to me about your pivot. How did you go from being a journalist to doing pep talk her tell me about your path.
Meggie (04:04):
Yeah, I guess my pivot was really motivated by being pissed off. Frankly, I was frustrated. Long story short, I worked as a foreign correspondent for about 15 years and a journalist and I loved it. It's such a cool job. You get the privilege as you know, from meeting people at their highest of highs and then also getting a window into folks' lives in their lowest moments too. And so it's this amazing window into the world. But long story short, I had an experience with an employer where my pain conditions were very different as it turns out to that of my male colleagues who I sat next to in the newsroom. And so I just thought they'd sort of stuffed it up and made a mistake, like an error. And so I was like a bol, I don't know, I was a lot younger and I was like, well, let's just get this fixed and this is a mistake and it'll be no dramas.
(04:44):
And so I said, oh, hey, can we just sort this out? And they were like, yeah, so if you're not happy with your pain conditions, you've got two choices. You could quit or you can take us to court. And I know I was like, are you effing kidding me? I was raised, I'm like a kid of the eighties and I was raised to think women and girls can do everything. And I had this sort of illusion that everything was fair and equitable, which obviously was very naive and I appreciate for so many people they don't get to that point in life until they have that horrible realization. I was lucky that it took me that long. But yeah, I was just shocked. And so long story short, I ended up getting a lawyer because I was like, you can't drink people like this. And I was just really frustrated and I kind of felt Kim like because I was lucky I had savings and I didn't have children or a family at the time, so I could take on that fight.
(05:27):
I felt very responsible because I was thinking what if I was pregnant or what if I was the breadwinner? I couldn't go into battle with a major employer because it obviously was going to be irreparable. So, so I got a lawyer and then I was like, okay, so this happens to me as a middle class white woman. There must be a lot of other folks getting totally screwed over and turns out obviously the blinkers are off. I started to learn about the gender pay gap. I started to learn about the fact that black women, indigenous women in Australia get paid significantly less than white women. And obviously the gap is significant for all of us. So that just kind of became, I guess the thing that kind of fueled me to figure out how could you solve for this problem? Because statistically, if you look at the United Nations, they reckon it's like 200 plus years with the current rate of change until we get to equity. And I just was like, that's not good enough. So I was very interested in how could you at a grassroots level instigate a level of change with the goal that the ripple effect would kind of spread out and hopefully create a tidal wave of change. And that's ultimately the mission of Pepto occur is to kind of close that gender pay gap and then as part of that, the leadership gap as well.
Kim (06:31):
Okay. So several follow up questions. So number one, I'm very interested in the fact I also was in corporate and I was in where basically no one ever talked about what they earned ever. I actually didn't know where I stood compared to my peers or my male peers. How did you, number one, I'm interested to know how did you get that information that you were paid less?
Meggie (06:49):
And you know what? It's a really great point. It was a male ally who told me and he was like, quote unquote, you should have negotiated better. And so that was one part of it. But then also in my specific situation, the way that they were enforcing the contracts was also very different. The men were getting preferential treatment when certain clauses, it's like a long boring story, but yeah, there was the twofold, there was the pay and then there was also the benefits and the way the packages were enforced that were very different. But it was because of a male ally that I even found out. And at the time, Australia had a law that said you legally could not discuss your compensation if there was a clause in your contract. Now they've since overruled that very recently, about 12 to 18 months ago. So now you can talk about it. So yeah, disparagement clauses were only recently removed. They don't have them in the US and they don't have them in the uk, which is a good thing.
Kim (07:37):
Great. So one thing I've started doing for the exit interview is can you give me your exit in one sentence or five words? How would I sum up that exit? Yeah, I mean I have an idea, mine's like a haiku, but
Meggie (07:50):
Jaws is a haiku.
Kim (07:53):
Thank God I got out. I don't know. Is that exact count? Yeah, that's great. That's great. I loved it. I was thinking pissed off, paid less pep talker. Oh,
Meggie (08:02):
There we go. See, this is why you work in marketing. You're a guru at this time. Yeah, I mean that works too. I love that. And also I also love the quote leap and the net will appear,
(08:11):
And that kind of speaks to me as well in the sense of my exit from that particular company and role wasn't ideal and yet also so grateful because if that hadn't have happened, probably I would've never have met you and maybe my son wouldn't have been born in Brooklyn. All of these things, who knows? And I'm grateful for the part that I'm on. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It was horrendous at the time. It actually gave me a lot of anxiety too. I couldn't leave my apartment. I was finding it so stressful. And I now know that that's because corporates use tactics when they're exiting folks around business or when they're going through a legal staff in my instance, I now know that it's all a game. It's all a game. It's not personal, it's just a game. But in the moment, and at the time I took it all on. So if anyone listening is having a similar situation, please DM me. I'm happy to of help talk you off the ledge if you are feeling stressed out about it too.
Kim (08:58):
And talk to me about how did that end up wrapping up? What was the conclusion of all of that?
Meggie (09:02):
I ended up exiting the business. I actually stayed in media for a little bit longer, went to another organization which I loved, and that was so pivotal to sort of the direction that my career took as well. But in that particular instance, I tried to be nice. I actually hired a mediator to start with to try and let's all be friends and kumbaya and I'm going to people please my way out of this. And they just didn't take me seriously. And it wasn't until I got a lawyer, I should have actually paid for a more expensive higher profile lawyer and I would've had a better outcome. There's another lesson. Yeah, it wasn't the exit that I would've hoped for because I think again, the people pleaser in me wanted to be friends with everyone and didn't want to rock the boat. I think often very, very, very rarely do people want to get into a legal argument or wants to even leave on bad turns. Most people just, most people want to have a great exit from their roles as you know, from the folks that you talk to. But in my instance, in that particular role, it just wasn't possible sadly. But again, grateful for the things that I've learned because that's really allowed me to help support thousands of other people. My mistakes. I've paid forward to other people, so hopefully others are better informed than I was.
Kim (10:05):
You end up being satisfied with how it all wrapped up.
Meggie (10:07):
I'm not sure if induced anxiety is ever something that I would say I'm satisfied. It was the first time I'd had anxiety was that whole process. So I dunno if I would say I'm satisfied. I'm grateful with retrospect that I left and that I had that experience because it opened my eyes. And again, I think when we talk about the pay gap, when we talk about discrimination in the workplace, the data is much worse for folks of color. And I think that's something else that I've learned from this whole experience is that look, really, I'm privileged even in what I went through, there's so much privilege that comes with that. And so maybe it would've taken me longer to learn that lesson if I hadn't gone through that. So perhaps that's a good thing.
Kim (10:42):
So let's talk about negotiation. So talk to me about big picture are, and I don't want to put the onus on what are women getting wrong, but what's happening in negotiations that maybe we're not thinking about, that we need to have a mindset shift so that we can go and negotiate better. So I understand that your goal through pep talk is help women get paid more and get promoted faster.
Meggie (11:05):
Totally. That's exactly what we're trying to do is help everyone listening to get paid a hell of a lot more and hopefully get promoted faster. So the thing that I would love people to leave our conversation with today is to understand that you have agency. I think often nine times out of 10, we think whoever we're negotiating with has all the power, right? Well, they're a fancy employer or they hold the keys to the paychecks. And that may be true. And also nine times out of 10, not a charity, they're not hiring you to be nice and cute and kind. They're hiring you because you're crushing it at what you do or because you're an expert or because you're going to make a leader's life easier or because with Pepto her, we're delivering services that are massively moving the needle in terms of their retention data.
(11:44):
So we have value to bring to the table as a company, just as listeners today who are working in the corporate space. You have value as a corporate employee. And even when they're things like, oh, there's no more budget this year, things are tight, et cetera, et cetera. The onus is on you to do the mental gymnastics ahead of time. So that as and when you get stonewalled or blocked in terms of asking for what you want, you are able to pivot the conversation towards non-monetary benefits as well. That is also negotiable. So I think the thing is that often, maybe you're like me, my first experience of negotiating was when I was 15 arguing with my dad about whether I should be grounded because I talked back too much. Shocker. So maybe folks have a negative connotation about negotiation because, or maybe we saw it on billions.
(12:27):
And we think that if you negotiate, you have to be like a boss slamming your fist on the table and it's like an aggressive, it's an argument. And actually if we just go back to basics, if we go back to the dictionary, negotiation is actually just a conversation. It's a conversation with a specific goal of finding an agreement. So sometimes we think that a negotiation is a fight or a battle or a butting of heads, but actually it's just two folks figuring it out and trying to come to a midpoint. That's all it is. And so if you can kind of take that mindset with you, all of a sudden you don't need to have a finance degree, you don't have to work on Wall Street to be a great negotiator. The reality is you have something to offer and the other person has something that they need or something to offer as well.
(13:08):
And it's trying to figure out what that looks like sometimes in the middle, not always, but just figuring out what are your non-negotiables, what are their non-negotiables and what are they willing to move on? So I'll give you an example, Kim. Remember back when I was a journalist, obviously we always want to start with pay. So when you're negotiating, we always want to maximize your monetary compensation and then you want to move to non-monetary stuff. And one of the things that I always knew that I could negotiate on was annual leave. So in Australia you get paid on your vacations even when you're on leave. And so I would always negotiate eight weeks of paid vacation because I knew it was no skin off their nose. Sometimes they'd do it officially, sometimes it'd be a handshake, unofficial wink, wink, nudge, nudge. You just take an extra two weeks and we won't tell anyone. But that was easy enough for them to do. I was happy. I wanted to travel more. There is a monetary value to that, it's like two weeks of my salary. So figuring out what are the things and the levers that they can move on if you hit an impasse with the stuff that they can't negotiate on,
Kim (14:04):
What are some counters to their arguments? Like, okay, let's say for example that non-monetary benefit of leave. Let's say they say, sorry Meggie, but your colleagues only get six weeks, so I can't give you eight weeks because that would be unequitable or unfair.
Meggie (14:18):
Yeah, totally. And so in that instance, it's again, the onus is on you to make sure that you are coming to the table with the meat on the bone as to why you deserve that. One of the reasons why we built Pep talker app is because our brains are actually hardwired for negativity. So when we get negative feedback or a negative performance review, you better believe we're going to spiral about that for weeks. And yet you probably have received a bunch of positive feedback this week, like in your instance, maybe on social media, maybe comments and people who are rating your show, giving you good feedback, your corporate clients giving you good feedback, but if someone gives you negative feedback or a negative review, you just kind of stew on it. And so we do the same things when it comes to our career. And the pep talker app is really aimed at helping you shift your mindset instead of spiraling onto the negative, really focusing dwelling and highlighting and documenting the positive.
(15:07):
So every time you do get a positive review, every time you do get a contract renewed, every time you do increase your sales goal, or if you're working in a company and you organize a team bonding event, record all of those things in the app and then you have a record, you have data to back up your argument and your case to why you should get paid more, why you deserve more vacation or why you are the best candidate for that promotion. And so one of the things that I always suggest people do is kind of come armed to those conversations with the evidence basically and the proof so that you can kind of document that to your boss or your superior to outline why you are deserving. Yes, there are rules and there's always exceptions to the rule. They're not going to tell you that there's exceptions to the rule, but I'm going to tell you right now, there is always an exception to the rule.
(15:54):
Sometimes there will be pay bans that can't be shifted and perhaps you're aware of one-off spot bonuses or signing bonuses or increases in equity and stuff like that, or higher commission rate than other people. Or if you do this, then this. It's also doing the mental gymnastics ahead of time to prove and to come up with alternatives. So you can also say with respect to the boss who said you can't have more vacation, I totally get that it's company policy to have six weeks of vacation. And with respect, I am an outlier to the company policy. As you'll note from the fact that my sales achievements are 22% year on year better than the rest of the team. You'll note that my attendance is a hundred percent. You'll recall the Coca-Cola client sent this specific feedback through about me on the 19th of February, which I'm sure you'll recall.
(16:40):
And so with respect, I would like to be given exceptional consideration outside of the bounds of what is normal because my performance is exceptional compared to my colleagues. I love that it's up to you to be able to make that case and that argument. You can't just say, well been here for two years, so I want it. That's not enough anymore, but you've got to make it easy for them. So what I always say to people ahead of time, you already know it doesn't really matter what you ask them, you already know what the response is. The response is either going to be yes, it's going to be no, or it's going to be, maybe you can literally map that out now and so map it out, grab a piece of paper, grab a pen, and do a little mind map. Yes, no, maybe if they say yes, where am I going to pivot? If they say no, where am I going to pivot? If they say maybe, and you can write down phrases and you can take notes in with you, and the first time you have this practice conversation, it shouldn't be with your boss. If you're friends with Kim, you need to call her. If you're friends with me, you need to call me. You need to talk to your roommate around your brother, your dad, whatever, have a fake conversation.
(17:40):
Let's role play this. And you're going to giggle and you're going to laugh and you might cry, and that's all fine because let's get it out now when it's safe and no consequence versus when you're in the room. Again, our brain doesn't know that this is fake versus real. So we're trying to get our brain really used to the idea of asking for these things, being bold, being courageous in a safe space so that when you're in a higher stress environment, you're a bit more nervous. Your brain has heard this before, so it's going to be more calm, more confident in terms of how you deliver it, and it's going to be perceived from a place of power. You are going to come from more of a place of power and your boss is going to really sense that as well. That energy is very palpable when you're coming from a place of power.
Kim (18:21):
I love the idea of doing the mock interview. I always used to do my eldest brother, I have two brothers, but my eldest brother was like, he would do the mock interview with me and he'd be like, stop. That was a nervous laugh. I'm like, okay. And then I would run through the situations and I definitely had situations in which I did great job in negotiating, and other times I did not at all. And I look back and I'm like, oh, okay. I didn't think before I said that. And this was in the era before, basically when someone could ask you what you earned and you'd have to tell them, not have to, but you just felt like you should. Now the laws have changed in New York at least that no one can ask you, but it used to be that they'd say, what were you earning? Or what are you earning? And then they go from there, which obviously is awful and blocks you from making great strides and bumps. Totally. I do think the idea of practicing is super important and I think it dovetails. I teach people about communication skills and nothing can be the first time. If you're getting on a stage and you're giving a speech, that better be your seventh time.
(19:19):
Totally. You better practice those skills in small situations on camera in your office, blah, blah, blah. So if the first time you're doing it is there, you're in trouble. I liked your point earlier, I meant to follow up with you. You were saying that our brains, so you were saying our brains are trained to focus on the negative. Can you tell me more about that?
Meggie (19:37):
Yeah, so it makes sense, right? If you think about back when we were cavemen and women, it's like our brains were hardwired to look for danger, right? So ooh, there's a tiger or a bear or a thunderstorm on the horizon. It was like a survival mechanism. Of course, I wanted to know, I want my brain to be ready to spot the tigers and the bears and the lines or whatever it is. So that's just like how our brain works for survival. That's what we had to focus on or else we would get eaten or else we would starve or whatever the case may be. And so those reptilian characteristics of our brain in many parts haven't changed. But the cool thing about our brain is that neuroplasticity tells us and the science behind it tells us that we can rewire our brain, but it takes time and it's like basically the way it works.
(20:22):
And for people who've read about neuroplasticity, you'll know some of this. It's like the way our neurons fire in our brain, it kind of like muscles. So it's like I'm getting back into my Pilates right now, Kim, and equally I would love these muscles to be massive right now, but I've only been going two or three times a week. So they're getting better, but they're not massive yet. But if I keep going to Pilates and if I keep stretching this muscle and flexing these muscles regularly, okay, they're going to get tighter, they're going to get more muscly, they're going to get stronger, but once a month it's not going to work. But if I do this every day for two years, all of a sudden I'm like the female Arnold Schwarzenegger, I'm going to be massive and super ripped and fit and all those kind of things.
(20:57):
And it's sort of the same thing with the muscle in our brain, and that's why we worked with the behavioral psychologist when we built the pep talker app because it was like we wanted it to be a behavioral loop that creates a positive behavioral change. So just like a lot of the apps are created to make it addictive for us to want to use, we created the pep talker app, not from an addiction perspective, but we wanted it to be really flexing those muscles in your brain to reflect on, Hey Kim, what are you proud of this week? What are you celebrating today? What's happened this week that you want to recall at performance review time? That's a muscle that we have to flex because most teams don't reflect on what they're celebrating at the start of all of our team meetings. It's the first thing I ask people is what are we celebrating this week?
(21:36):
Let's go back to the wins. I want to learn the lessons too, but I want to start with the celebration. Let's focus on that. And if we do that every team meeting that becomes a practice the first time people join the team, that's not what they focus on, but that's what we want to train people to focus on. And that's why we built the pep talk route because I want you to remember, even if you had a bad week overall, even if you didn't hit your target, all these really cool things happened, you trained the intern, the CEO liked your message in the Slack team channel, or you got good impressions on LinkedIn, or if you're working with Kim, you had great engagement with your video content, I want you to focus on those, not on the one troll who's left you a negative comment that does not outweigh all the positives.
(22:17):
And so we kind of think of it like a period tracking app except instead of tracking your cycle, it tracks your wins at work. And that has to be a practice so that your brain can start to default to that because if you can start to do it in everyday life, all of a sudden in your negotiations the stonewalling that we can't do that, there's no more budget, you've only been here 18 months, those things throw you off less because you're able to pivot more easily. You're like, listen, I understand this is not normal. I get that I'm new to the team and I'm super excited to reiterate the wins that I've had, including the 17% year on year increase in the weg clicks that we've had, the positive feedback from the executive leadership team on my leadership of our team of 10. You're able to reflect back those wins in a way that is really hard for people to then ignore your requests. Candidly,
Kim (23:05):
What sort of leverage do you have? A lot of times I think that people ask for things, they feel like they don't have leverage. You get a no and you're like, Ooh, I just bumped up against a no, I want to get promoter. I want to get a raise.
Meggie (23:16):
So when you have a plan B or when you have a lot of leverage, you can negotiate from a bigger position of power. And this is the thing, the way that I can negotiate today is very different to someone who's negotiating, who has no savings, who is the sole breadwinner and who is a single mother for example. So your situation impacts every negotiation. And so those are the things that I can give you lots of advice, and you also have to put it in context of where you are right now. If you lose this job, if this creates a rift in the business, what is the ramifications for you? If you've got another job offer that you can sign tomorrow, it's very easy for you to go hardcore with a negotiation. You just don't care because you have an alternative. And so always having alternatives is one of the biggest things that we talk about in the pep talk and mastermind in our courses because having leverage and having a network and community of people who can help you find those opportunities as in when you need them is crucial.
(24:09):
But the other thing is also just, and Alex Carter does really great work on this, and she speaks about this in her book as well. She has a great book called Ask for More. She talks a lot about the way that you communicate in a negotiation is also powerful because we know from research that men and women who are bosses both discriminate against women when they negotiate because of the unconscious bias that we have that women should be people pleasers and they should be in the background and making everyone look good. That's like a historical context, which is a whole nother conversation. But because of that unconscious bias that exists in the world, there is discrimination against women when we quote dare to ask for more. And so the way that we ask and the language that we use when we ask is actually really important.
(24:51):
Not because we should have to change ourselves because of the unconscious bias, but because if we want the best result for ourselves, that's going to shortcut our way to success. And so what we know for women is collective language is very powerful. So if I say I want a new salary, I want a higher salary because I'm amazing and I want it now, you could totally do that. And the research tells us that if we reframe that to say, I'm so proud of the work that we as a team have done this here and collectively we've moved the needle in this way. And so with that in mind, I'm really excited to talk to you about my compensation moving forward. So for whatever reason, the collective, when women negotiate as a collective, we do a lot better. And actually the research shows that women are actually better collective negotiators than we are individual negotiators. So perhaps some folks listening can relate to this. When negotiating on behalf of our team or on behalf of our company, we feel very strong and powerful, but all of a sudden when we have to negotiate for ourselves, that is where some of us feel more of a struggle comes up. And so yeah, it's helpful to understand the research so that then you can use that to inform the way you go about these conversations.
Kim (25:56):
I always find it really ironic that companies will negotiate with you more when you're about to leave. I'm like, totally. I just think big picture. I have a real problem with corporate. I think that you should value and give those raises to people who have loyalty that you like instead of forcing them to look for another opportunity, then they may leave. There are jobs that will pay somebody 30% more that's outside and then they'll negotiate and maybe they'll say, maybe they won't. You just chased away an amazing employee. But anyway, that's like an aside. I just think it's very counterproductive to companies that often your strongest leverage is when you have an outside offer because sometimes that offer looks awesome and then you're like, oh, I didn't realize how much I was worth at a different company.
Meggie (26:35):
Totally. And I will say to that, to your point around leverage, the leverage, firstly, you should be negotiating every single year because the reality is that a squeaky wheel gets the oil. I had a client once Kim, and she was like, oh, I tried to negotiate once and it didn't work. And I was like, okay, so tell me about what happened. She told me and I was like, when was that? She was like, oh, it was five years ago. So she hadn't negotiated for five years, and so they said no once and she never asked again. And so of course in that time because of inflation and the cost of living, in fact she was sliding backwards. But to your point, the other piece of leverage that we always have is that one of the things that folks will probably know that recruiting costs is significant, so they can be anywhere from 10 to 30% of a salary.
(27:13):
So if you are owning a hundred thousand dollars and if you leave a business, chances are they're going to spend 10 to $30,000 recruiting for you, let alone the loss of institutional knowledge, the time overlap, the stress and the punish that it is for your boss to be without you for however many months while they recruit. So there is that inherent leverage that you have too that you can be like, listen, I don't want to leave. I love the culture here. I love working under your leadership, and I'd just love to find a way for me to stop considering these external offers that keep coming to me unsolicited. So can we just have a really candid conversation about that and just really leaning into the honesty of it. And then also you have to believe when they tell you if they say it's just not going to happen. As much as you love it, if money is important to you and if those benefits that you're trying to negotiate are important, you may have to look elsewhere. You might not want to, but you may have to, right? And so it's also just being honest about yourself and what you really need.
Kim (28:07):
I have to say, Meggie, I must have been channeling you because I was at lunch with a friend recently who's been in corporate for a long time and she's really successful. And she was saying that she had an outside, outside company approaching her and just in terms of her personal life, she's a mom. It's not the right time, and the opportunity wasn't that good, but it was for a bunch more money. And I was like, why don't you go to your boss and say, I'm not looking for this. They approached me in all candor, I'm happy here, but I can't deny that this is a bunch more money. And she works in a male dominated industry. And I was like, do you think any of your male colleagues wouldn't just say at minimum, say, Hey, someone's coming here with a 25% bump, let's just put that on the table then.
(28:46):
So she said it ended up that they ended up kind of making a promise to her that in six months or whatever, they'd make her whole to that amount or nine months, but if she hadn't had that conversation, that bump would never have happened. And so I think you're right that we come to these negotiations in this negative, I have always been like, Ugh, I hate negotiations. I hate sales. I find 'em so uncomfortable. I'm a pleaser just like everyone else. But the truth is it's a conversation. You want me, I want you. Now that I'm out of corporate, it's easier for me to say, but I do think it's like you want my skills, I want this job. It could be a good fit. Let's get to yes, but it's hard. And I love also, I want to say I love the wins When I do coaching at the beginning, I always say, let's drop our wins in the chat.
(29:27):
Let's celebrate those wins from small to big because love it. We really do gloss over. I'll be thinking about the one negative thing that happened the whole month and I've had 30 other great things. And it's ironic that biologically we haven't evolved past that, but that's okay. But I think it's really important that we're building our own neurons and building those new pathways that we're saying, Hey, actually I had all of these amazing feedback from clients. I did a great speaking engagement. All of these good things are happening and let alone our personal life, I do with my kids the rose and thorn. And we say, okay, what's something good that happened? What's something not as good that happened? And we get into the habit of saying some things are good and some things are not as good, and that's okay. And we've layered in a bud. So rose is something good, thorn has something bad, and a bud is something we're working on. And we all go around and say that I think our kids also think that we're
Meggie (30:16):
So good
Kim (30:17):
Is mythic heroes. And I'm like, no, mommy did something and she was really bad at it. Mommy did this thing and she didn't work hard enough and it didn't go well, and next time she'll work harder. But I think they look at us and think that everything's easy and it's not.
Meggie (30:33):
This is such a good reminder. I think about that too with my son. How do I role model to him? Sarah Blakely and Jesse Itzler always talk about this too, embracing and encouraging failure and risk so much as be careful or when they're little. Then also you sort of want to flip the switch and be like, go for it. Let's see what happens. What if you fail, but what if you don't? So I love that rose thorn bud analogy. It's great.
Kim (30:57):
And I'd love to ask you as a founder, what's been the hardest part about growing pep talker?
Meggie (31:02):
I mean, I think one thing that I am grateful that I learned fairly early on was that everyone else is making it up too. Turns out no one's got their shit totally together unless you do Kim, but no one that I've met has it totally together. So that was kind of freeing just to be able to give myself grace and be like, yeah, it's fine. You're figuring it out. You mucked this up, you did this. Well guess what? You'll probably have that tenfold over the next year anyway. So I kind of love it though. And one of my mantras is the journey is the destination. And so that's been really helpful in just of course we have goals and milestones that we're trying to hit in terms of impact of we have 70,000 people in the community. We're trying to grow that to a hundred thousand by the end of the year.
(31:41):
Of course there's all these goals that we have and also it's so much fun along the way. What a privilege that I get to support people at some low moments, and that's some really high moments. One of my clients recently, she was on, I don't know, maybe a quarter of a million dollars and she just got a seven figure job offer that is bananas insane. And I'd got to be witness to that with her as part of our coaching. So I mean, I wish that happened every day, Kim. That's an outlier, but even so, it's even clients that are getting $5,000 pay increases. That's amazing. I'm so thrilled for them. We had another woman and she didn't think she would ever hit six figures in her entire life. All she wanted to do was hit a hundred thousand dollars. And I was like, we can get you there.
(32:22):
It's very doable with her skillset. And then within six months she did, which was cool, but the coolest thing slash not cool, that was a situation in the first place. She was able to leave a domestic violence relationship because she had the money to do so. And so that's why I'm so obsessed with women get wealthy through pay rises and new roles at work is because money gives us power choice. And whether that's a choice to invest, whether that's a choice to buy a house or to leave a bad relationship, that is game changing. And so that's why I'm so passionate about money and women and I just think it changes the world and I know it does as well from the work you do. It's game changing,
Kim (33:00):
Absolutely the same. I help people speak more confidently on camera and promote themselves their personal brand. And they're seeing more clients come in because they believe in their message and they believe in themselves. Absolutely. And then I know my last question for you, I have a lot of listeners here who work for themselves and they're not necessarily in corporate anymore, but you have a business, so you use these negotiation skills. How can someone who's running their own business apply some of these negotiation lessons?
Meggie (33:23):
Yeah, it's a great point, Kim. And so one of the frameworks that you can use whether you are a professional in an organization or an entrepreneur is having the www, so the wish, the want and the walk. So knowing as an employee, what is my wish figure? What is my want figure and what is my walk figure? It's the same thing if you have your own business. So for you it's like what is my wish, want walk in terms of package prices or my speaker fees? So the wish is like, whoa, I can't believe this is an option. I can't believe I'm getting paid that much money. And by the way, maybe spend a minute or so thinking about what is that wish figure for you? And then I want you to add tax at least. So let's really shoot for the stars there. And then at the very far end of the other spectrum is the walk figure, which is like, I am not getting out of bed for that amount of money.
(34:04):
It's not worth it. My time is better spent elsewhere. That's offensive. It doesn't value me. No. Now you might not quit straight away, but you're probably not going to take it seriously. And then the one figure is a number that sits between those numbers somewhere, not necessarily right in the middle, but a number that's between the wish and the walk figure. And that's a number where you're like, you know what? This is a really fair valuing of my time and expertise. I feel really great to give this 110% for that amount of money. The other thing, I have a team, and of course unfortunately we do have a limited budget and also I want to pay people well because I don't want them to be looking for another job all the time. I don't want them to have one foot and one foot out. So don't forget that bosses actually do want to pay you well so that you're excited and so you're satisfied to commit to them.
(34:47):
So I think that's the other thing, again, just remembering the power that you have. Same thing as an entrepreneur, as a coach, or providing services to corporates like we do, or for you, helping people learn how to speak. There is a value in what you do. My cousin puts it like you have to cut checks to go faster in business. And I think that's true. People want to pay us to come in to run leadership programs because it takes stuff off their plate and it achieves a goal in terms of retention and in terms of net promoter score for the business, same for you. They want to cut you a check because they want to grow on Instagram or they want to grow their speaking and they just can't get out of their own way to do it themselves. So if the money that you are charging isn't high enough, they might not take it seriously, right?
(35:24):
Too high. You're going to rule out all these clients. So figuring out what that number is, it feels fair, good, but also feels fair for both sides is the way that I would approach it. And also just candidly, making sure that you can always get on a call with people. Sometimes when you're putting numbers in writing, people can get sticker shock versus you can talk them through it. You can get their nonverbal reactions. So if they go, oh my gosh, and their eyes light up versus if they sort of lean in and say, yeah, that seems fair. Straight away, you can see if you've priced it in the realm that feels right for them. So nonverbal cues are really helpful for negotiations as well.
Kim (35:57):
I'm taking so many notes by the way, I'm looking down because I'm taking so many notes. I agree with all of those things. I have learned those things and I think they're so amazing. My husband used to work in consulting and he's like, but you don't want to work for that price. I'm like, yeah, you're right. He's like, then make it higher. And he's like, what would you be psyched about? I'm like, okay, great. So he helped me price out some big corporate packages. I think there's a lot of conversation for women consultants, especially about proposals. First, all proposals take a while to write. You send it, you don't even know if they opened it. Like, no, it's a waste of my time. And I'm like, if you want to know what I cost, let's hop on the phone. It could take 15 minutes. I'll take you through it.
(36:33):
And then you're right, I can get a sense of is this the right price? Is this too high for them? Can we figure out something else? But you send it into the ether, you don't even get the reaction. So you put in the time exactly and you wasted your time and you don't even get the reaction. I always feel like this is my time. If you want to know what I charge, we have 10 minutes. Let's do 10 minutes of both. Our time is valuable. So I think it's also a respect of your own time because when you do send something on email, you don't even really get anything out of it because maybe they thought, eh, that's fine, but I got busy, I forgot. Or maybe they were like, whoa, that's too high. And then you would've learned totally on the phone from their nonverbal cues that that's too high.
Meggie (37:10):
Absolutely. And I think there's things you can do as well. I agree with you. Getting on a call is super value. And also as an entrepreneur, sometimes your time is the most valuable thing you have. And so there's ways you can triage for that. So for example, we have a mastermind community. The price is listed on the website. It's very transparent. It's 97 or $197 a month. So it's very transparent. People that are applying to work with our executive coaches, me or my team, when they go through the application form, it explicitly says it's a four figure a month investment. So people know I'm going to get on this call because I can afford that and I want to invest that, or I'm not going to bother because that's out of my price range. And so there's ways you can triage as well. So for example, you might put in your speaking fee fees from $5,000. So then at least that folks are getting on the call with the presumption that they have around at least that amount of money. Or maybe your fees are more than $50,000, whatever the case may be,
Kim (38:00):
A hundred million dollars is fee. Listen,
Meggie (38:03):
A very large author and speaker who's just come out with a new book who shall remain nameless, is ripped by my speaking agent as well, and her fee is $250,000 plus a private jet. Good for her.
Kim (38:14):
There you go. Something for us all to aspire to. Good for her. Good for her. Alright Meggie, this is amazing. I feel like I personally have so many notes. I'm like this quote this, this has been, I'm delighted to, so full of nuggets. How can people connect with pep talker, you all of the things? Where should they find you?
Meggie (38:30):
Yeah, well, I mean, listen, like most folks, I'm lurking on Instagram for longer during the day than I care to admit. So say hi Peptalkher. I'm on LinkedIn, Meggie Palmer, you can find me there. And then, yeah, folks are looking for a community for accountability and momentum around their professional growth, whether they're entrepreneurs or professionals. That's what we do in our mastermind community. So you can just head to peptalkher.com/join, and then yeah, we would love to connect with people. I love your podcast. We've been following each other for years. We live down the road. Yeah, so it's so nice to be on the air with you. What a treat.
Kim (39:02):
Me too. Thank you so much, Meggie.
Meggie (39:04):
Yeah,
Kim (39:04):
Pleasure. Thanks Kim.
(39:10):
Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to exit the grind and enter success on your own terms. This is the exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Don't forget to grab my free download, how to Grow Your Business with Amazing video at kimrittberg.com and linked out in the show notes. I love to hear your feedback. Make sure to submit to me what you learned from the show and how your crushing it on your own terms. Connect with me on Instagram or LinkedIn at Kim Rittberg, R-I-T-T-B-E-R-G. And this show is edited by Jillian Grover and produced by Henry Street Media. I'm your host and executive producer Kim Rittberg.