Ep. 123/ Dr. Gail Miller on How to Move Through Grief and on Being Childless Not By Choice
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In this emotional and insightful episode of the podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Gail Miller, a maternal fetal medicine physician and trauma-informed life coach who specializes in supporting women who are childless not by choice. Gail shared her powerful perspective on grief, explaining that it can arise not only from losing what we've had but also from losing the experiences and life paths we never got to fulfill. Her honest reflections on her struggles with infertility and societal pressures to always appear positive genuinely resonated with me as did her take on “toxic positivity.” Gail's approach to handling emotional triggers, particularly for her clients navigating high-risk pregnancies, was both compassionate and practical. She provided her specialized framework and valuable strategies for transitioning from negative mindsets to acceptance and resilience, emphasizing the importance of sitting with one's pain rather than avoiding it and eventually creating a new life, filled with joy.
We discussed the concept of "the and," where Gail highlighted the coexistence of good and bad in life. Gail's personal journey, including the realization that embracing all emotions—both happy and sad—is crucial for genuine healing, struck a chord with me. For anyone grappling with loss or unplanned life paths, Gail's insights provide both validation and hope that joy and purpose can indeed coexist with grief.
In this episode you will learn:
How people can move through grief in a healthy way
How her experience being childless by choice make her want to coach others
What is “the and” and why it’s so important
What should people NOT say to someone childless not by choice
How people who are childless not by choice can go from grieving to accepting to thriving
How “toxic positivity” can cause unintentional harm
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In this episode you will learn:
How people can move through grief in a healthy way
How her experience being childless by choice make her want to coach others
What is “the and” and why it’s so important
What should people NOT say to someone childless not by choice
How people who are childless not by choice can go from grieving to accepting to thriving
How “toxic positivity” can cause unintentional harm
Quotes from our guest:
“Grief isn't only about losing someone or something you had; it's also about losing what you never got to experience.” - 19:21
"Processing my own grief involved ceasing to push away painful emotions. When I allowed them to surface, it created space for less challenging emotions and moments of joy. This balance has enriched my life significantly." - 15:56
“To live a fulfilling life while acknowledging pain, I encourage my clients to embrace 'the and.' It's the power of holding both grief and happiness simultaneously. You can have dreams unfulfilled yet still lead a life filled with moments of joy and purpose. It’s this balance that brings true resilience." - 27:37
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GAIL’S LINKS:
Kim (00:02):
You are going to hear from Dr. Gail Miller. She's a trauma-informed life coach for women who are childless, not by choice and by day she's a maternal fetal physician. Dr. Miller talks to us about her own personal journey with infertility and being childless, not by choice what other women should know about how to go from grieving to accepting to thriving. And she talks about what she calls toxic positivity and what people should stop saying to women who are childless not by choice. Plus, she talks about the and why it's so important to accept both the negative and the positive in life.
(00:43):
Welcome to the Exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Do you work for yourself and want to supercharge your business while still having fun? Well, this is your go-to podcast part MBA Part Cheer Squad. Every week I'll be joined by top business owners who share the secrets to their success. After I found myself working during childbirth true story, I quit my executive media job to bet on myself fighting the fear and imposter syndrome to eventually earn six awards, an in-demand speaking career and features in Fast Company and Business Insider. Now, I'm here to celebrate all you rock stars betting on yourself, and I want to help you win. Tune in every Wednesday to hear from remarkable founders and don't miss our Solo Friday episodes, a treasure trove of video and podcasting mini masterclasses with me. Exit the grind, enter success on your own terms. Don't forget to subscribe today and grab my free video tips at my website, kimrittberg.com.
(01:44):
You're going to hear from Dr. Gail Miller. She's a doctor and trauma-informed life coach, and she's specifically a maternal fetal physician and she's now a life coach for women who are childless, not by choice. And why I was so excited to have Gail on the show is Gail and I have known each other over the past year we've been working together, and I just love that Gail, when you meet her is really like a joyful, kind, empathetic person and her whole position and all she's dedicated to is helping other women find the positivity, find contentment in their life after they've gone through a really hard time. And what I like also, while she coaches women who are childless not by choice, she overall also has a message of positivity, not just positivity, which she actually says can be toxic positivity, but it's about really accepting the things that have come in your life, even the negative, especially the negative, but also then holding onto the positive. And she calls that and being able to feel both things and being able to move through the things in your life that have impacted you and been really, really hard. So I'm really super excited to bring in Gail. She's just a great person and she lives her life with such kindness and empathy and she's helping so many people.
Gail (03:05):
Thank you for having me. I've been so excited to be on here. So yeah, so as a maternal fetal medicine physician, I take care of women who have high risk pregnancies. I myself ended up childless by circumstance, not by choice. So I had always thought I would become a mom. There was never a question, and I ended up in this situation. And it's not uncommon for people to be like, well, how ironic? Well, yeah, that's one way to look at it. And I got to this place in my personal life again unexpectedly. And I also wasn't recognizing that I was grieving. I was angry, frustrated, sad, and I was putting on this smile like this forced because of course we're just supposed to be positive and not letting anybody know what I was going through. And it hit me when somebody was talking about lifecycle events.
(04:15):
I actually just started bawling. And I was like, why? And it took me time to figure out that my anger, all of these feelings that I was hiding was grief, and it was grief over this life that I had planned that of course didn't turn out that way. And then it took me a while, but turned things around and I was like, okay, you have to stop focusing only on what you have lost and realize what you have. And what helped me the most with that, what coaching? But I didn't have coach or therapist who was also childless, not by choice. And at the time I didn't even know what that term was. I just kind of googled. I didn't have children and I wanted to, and it came up childless, not by choice. And that's when I thought, okay, this is what I need to do.
(05:13):
Now that I'm at this place where I'm feeling so much better about life doesn't mean I don't feel sad about it ever, but now I can enjoy the life I live. And that's when I realized there aren't really people out there focused on this group of women. And so that's what you need to be doing. You need to help other women get to the place where you are. So long story to get to, that's why I decided this is why I need to become a life coach, and that's where I want my focus to be on women who are childless, not by choice. In addition, other people have come to me that I've coached who are not childless, not by choice, but their lives didn't turn out the way they planned either. And coaching has been really helpful for them as well. It's a different situation, but mostly I focus on women who are childless, not by choice, but anybody who's like, this is not what I expected from life and I need to figure out how to feel better. That's who I help.
Kim (06:25):
What for you on that side of coaching for when you were experiencing? Being childless by choice was a big aha moment for you. And if you, however much you feel comfortable or not comfortable with sharing your own personal story, I welcome that.
Gail (06:39):
The aha moment that I had that led me to, okay, you got to change your mindset was you get the emails with, look at your photos from this day, however many years ago. And I had one of those emails pop up and I, okay, what was on this day? And I'm looking at pictures of myself, who is that person? Because I looked so happy and I was like, okay, what's going on here? What's the difference? And I was like, I mean, I sat there and stared at this thing and then it hit me. The photo was from the time before I realized motherhood wasn't going to happen, and that was the aha moment that led me to, okay, you have to stop focusing only on what you don't have and focus on what you do have. What coaching helped me with, because there's a lot of guilt that comes with that's this, I'm being disloyal to the child that I dreamed of.
(07:54):
I'm being disloyal to my own desires. And it's also this fear of, well, if I'm enjoying life, then it's saying that I don't want children and I'm okay with this and that's not true. And what coaching taught me was that was a huge aha. It's like life is 50 50, there's good and bad in everybody's life, and you can carry that pain from that loss, that loss of that dream of a future that you won't have. You can carry that with you and also live a fulfilling life and love what you do have. So that was a huge aha for me with coaching is recognizing it's not one or the other. You can have both and you don't have to have that guilt over. Yeah, it's no big deal to me. No, it's still a big deal to me. But now, because I know I can have both in my life instead of the pain taking up this part of my life, it takes up this part. I mean, granted, there are days where it's like it comes back, but most of my life is about what I do have,
Kim (09:10):
And I know this because we've worked together before that your backstory was that you had struggled with fertility and then you met your husband later in life, which I think that happens to a lot. I think that's kind of a common thing, both fertility struggles and the leader in life. And can you talk to me a little bit more about your own experience if you're comfortable with that?
Gail (09:30):
Oh, absolutely. So part of that dream of motherhood was I dreamed the perfect partner next to me. And I didn't realize it. It wasn't a moment in time. It was over time where it's like, okay, I'm getting older and I haven't met a lot of imperfect but not the perfect person. And I did consider single motherhood, and I let two people get in the way of that. And one being a parent who would have disowned me would've set Shiva for me, and the other was a boss who was exceedingly very conservative. And I would've been fired as a single mother. I mean, I don't think anybody would outright fire someone these days. They probably indirectly could push them out, but he would've been able to outright fire me and I was in a place in my life then. I mean now I can look back and I have a lot that I could say to both those people, but at that stage in my life, I didn't have that confidence to be like, I can do this without any of you.
(10:41):
So I really pushed it away. I did end up in a new job where I was looking to, okay, I'll deal with the family stuff separately, but now I have a boss who I won't get fired. However, I had to schedule an appointment months out to get the fertility workup, and then I had to reschedule, and then I had to reschedule because I was in a situation where I was working ridiculous hours and I got to a place where I was like, I will need IVF and how do I do that if I can't even make one appointment for months? So I decided over time, I can't do this. Who's going to take care of my child? I'm gone all the time. So I let it go and decided, okay, this isn't going to happen. And I thought I was over it. And then I did meet my husband, I met the right person.
(11:42):
We never talked about having our own kids because I thought I was over it, but marriage, it was like a switch that got flipped and desire. Wow, it came back full force then some. So when we talked about it was like he never expected this. He had three kids and they were teenagers and he had done the terrible twos and all the diaper changes and the terrible twos, and he was at the end of the teenage troubles, which were troublesome to say the least. And he's like, I don't want to have more kids. And he certainly didn't want to have to go through IVF because we would've needed to. And I thought, okay, I can lose this person who I love and I don't want to lose this relationship. And then still I'm on my own trying to have a baby. So that's when I was like, okay, this is just not going to happen.
(12:47):
I mean, it didn't happen like that, but that's when the grief really set in. That's where we are. He really didn't get how I felt until 12 years later. I did a TEDx talk and that was part of it. I told my story and the very first time that I practiced it with him, well, first of all, I cried through the whole thing. But anyways, then after that I was good, but it hit him because that was part of the story that I told. And he came over to me and just, I had no idea how this truly affected you, just our conversation about it. So yeah, it took a few years, but he got it then and apologized. Great. 12 years later, I don't have kids.
Kim (13:51):
That's a little too late.
Gail (13:54):
But anyway, so yeah, that was really the first time he truly heard the whole story about my feelings was hearing me practice my TEDx talk. What a way to hear that for the first time, but at least it wasn't actually at the event he heard it beforehand.
Kim (14:14):
Right. Surprise, this is what really happened 12 years ago that you never knew. One thing that I think is really notable, and when I met you, you are a very, I think peaceful but also joyful person. And so I'd love to hear more about how you process the trauma of being childless by choice. You really wanted a child and it didn't happen for you. So I'd love to hear from you kind of how you process that grief and move through it. And now I really, from what I know of you, I see you, I feel like you sit in a very content place. Can you talk to me about that process and then how you apply that to people you work with?
Gail (14:51):
So it was learning that I had to face the pain and not push it away. Instead, what I was doing was all the messages we get about just be positive. So how I took it was like, pretend away the painful feelings because you're not supposed to feel this stuff. And that's what I learned, especially through coaching. It's like, no, no, no, you can't push it away. You have to feel those feelings. If you don't, they don't ever go away. Instead, they fester and then they come out in other ways, usually in ways that don't align with how we want to live. For me, it would come out with comfort foods and eating and making myself sick. I put on that phony smile and then at the end of the day, I'd be binging on stuff that I already, I knew I can't eat these foods or I would shop till you drop whatever, however you want to say it.
(15:56):
I'd get that high and now I feel great. And then you come home with your new packages and it's like, yeah, I'm coming home to the same thing. And so when I learned, when I finally accepted that I had to actually feel that pain and not force the, oh, I'm happy, even though I don't feel like it, that's when I realized the challenging emotions will eventually, they'll lessen, maybe not go away, but they lessen to a point where, yeah, now I can see the sun in the clouds. That was key in my whole healing process was learning to accept that the painful emotions are human and we have to experience them and not push them away, and they're also valid. So that's what allowed in the positive ones, the good feelings, the less challenging ones. For example, and this is several years later, it was just recent, my husband's daughter invited me when she was getting married to come see while she's trying on the bridal gowns.
(17:14):
It was this mixture of, wow, I'm so glad that she respects me enough and wants me there. She didn't have to have me there. And at the same time, it was painful because here I am, I don't have, we get along, we have a positive relationship, but I don't have that connection with her. Her mother does. I would if she was my child. So I was able to be like, yeah, that's valid. You're allowed to feel that painful part and be really appreciative that you got invited and be part of the excitement and be excited. So had I just forced away the part of what I was missing, I would not have enjoyed the day because I would've been trying to pretend that it was all okay. And there was still a part of me that's like, yeah, I'm not the mother of the bride, right?
Kim (18:15):
And let's acknowledge that that's okay, but let's be real about that.
Gail (18:18):
Yeah, that was a huge thing from coaching is don't push away those feelings. The second part was really validating, learning to validate because you get these messages all the time, again, about positivity, but also that the negative stuff is wrong. So validating that, and this was a huge one that I didn't get directly from the coaching, but from a coaching program, I was very fortunate to listen to Dr. Edith Egger. I don't know if you're familiar with her. I got to listen to her in virtual person, in person, but virtually or in real life, but virtually I should say, she is. I think she turned 97 yesterday. She is a psychologist and she was a Holocaust survivor, and she was talking about how pain is pain. People come to her and say, I can't talk to you as a psychologist of what you went through.
(19:21):
This is what I'm going through is nothing. And she's like, no, that's not true. And my favorite quotes of hers, of course, I can't think of it exactly, but it's on my website. And that is about how grief isn't just over what we had and then lost. It's what we didn't get that we wanted to have. And that was a huge validation because again, one of the other things we hear all the time is you can't miss what you never had. And that's not true. Yeah, I can miss this child, this life that I didn't have. And I think we learned that with Covid, right? All the people who didn't get their big birthday celebrations or the big family trips or the weddings they had planned, it's like, yeah, you didn't have those, but you definitely can miss them and grieve over that and be sad over it. So I think helped many more people understand you can miss what you never had. But through this coaching program that I sat through, I got to listen to her and I was like, oh my gosh. I mean this woman who's been through these atrocities and she can tell me that my pain is pain. And that was a validation that I shouldn't have needed, but I needed that and it helped me immensely. And so these are the things that I talk about with clients as well.
Kim (20:51):
And one of the things that I really admire is I know a big part of the work that you do and people in general handle is triggers, and you're a maternal fetal physician, meaning you are around women in high risk pregnancies, handling, and so all day long you're basically surrounded by triggers for you. And so can you tell me a little bit about, I know you have your proprietary framework of how you move people from feeling really negative being in this negative space, whether or not they're acknowledging it, but going from that negative mindset to acceptance to moving through to where you can be now.
Gail (21:25):
Yeah. It begins with acknowledging that what have what you've experienced is a loss. Even for women who didn't go through fertility, infertility treatment for whatever reason, they don't have a child, but they wanted to, even women who didn't have a pregnancy loss. It starts with acknowledging that what you have is a loss. It's this loss of this vision, this life you had planned, a future you had planned. So it starts with really recognizing and honoring it, not pretending it away, and acknowledging the pain and learning how to sit with the pain. Because even if it's not over the, I am just supposed to be positive, nobody wants to feel these feelings. They don't feel good. So you try to do anything to avoid that pain. But that is part of the process is really feeling it, which allows it to then lessen. And then it's learning how to deal with the triggers, which some of them, there is no way to avoid all triggers.
(22:45):
You would have to never leave your home and never be on social media, never watch tv, listen to anything, never read a book or a magazine. Triggers change over time. What didn't trigger you before will trigger you now. So you never know what's going to trigger you. So it's first figuring out what are my triggers now? What are the ones that I can't ever get away from? And then it's a process of figuring out how you manage the pain of a particular trigger. So for instance, had someone who, when she went to family get togethers for holidays or whatever, the difficult part was before sitting down to the meal because that's when everybody would stand in the kitchen and talk about everybody's in this small circle, right? You're not at this big table where you're just talking to one or two people and they're in the kitchen and they're talking about all the kids' accomplishments and all the new pregnancy announcements and all of that.
(23:53):
And that's also where it was easier for whichever relative it was. That would of course hound her, why don't you have kids? What's wrong with you? Or why don't you try? There's always some snake oil, something that people are sure will fix fertility issues. And so she realized that that was the part of getting together with her family. She couldn't not get together with her family, but that was the part that where she got triggered. So she learned to, yeah, I'm still going to get together with my family, but I'm going to show up when I know around the time the meal is starting instead of doing this whole, let's catch up with everybody now in the kitchen. It made a huge difference for her in how she looked forward to going to the get togethers and how she managed it. It's not that she didn't feel that sting when she sees her family members with kids, but it was not in any way the same thing. So it's figuring out what your triggers are, which ones are just, you're never going to be able to avoid them and how you work with them to lessen the sting or maybe get rid of it.
Kim (25:07):
And I know then, so the final stage of your framework is really existing in that new now where you, you've accepted and you're moving forward into a more sustainable position where you've accepted.
Gail (25:21):
The last part is figuring out not just your new life, but what gives you purpose. Is it something that you used to do, used to enjoy, but you stop because of whatever got in the way of that with having a child? Or is it something that you can't even do anymore? It just doesn't give you pleasure or that triggers you? So sometimes it's relearning what you used to love and sometimes it's okay, I can't do that anymore. Let me figure out what it is that I love in life that I can turn into purpose. We always think of purpose as some major, like, I'm going to cure cancer. It's what gets you up in the morning. It's like, is it you paid for the person behind you at Starbucks or McDonald's or whatever it is? It's not just these major projects, it's little things. It doesn't have to be, I'm going to get rid of world hunger. So it's the little things that you do in life that can make you feel amazing, but you have to learn to focus on those.
Kim (26:33):
Sure. I like to keep our episode short, so I'm going to ask you one or two more questions about what you do and then one or two more questions about the coaching and how it's going. And then I wanted to ask you, I really love, there's two points that I know from working with you that I love. Give me really quickly what's a couple of things that people should never say to people when their child lives by choice.
Gail (26:53):
They should never ask, why don't you have kids? And they should never give unsolicited advice about how to have kids.
Kim (27:03):
First of all, there's two points of the sentence. Number one, I love that you did a TEDx talk. I know that you have a hard time with public speaking, so I feel like you doing a TEDx talk is one of those examples of we can do hard things. We can tell ourselves we're going to do it, we're going to work through it. Then the second part, I know you talk a lot about the, and talk to me briefly about the, and I love this as a concept. I think it's really important. I think that when we are feeling emotionally and mentally healthy, we are applying the and into our life, but we often don't think about it. So talk to me about the and why it's so important for people to embrace it.
Gail (27:37):
The and is really about recognizing that life is about both good and bad. I mean, honestly, if we only had good in our lives, would we even appreciate it? If you don't have the bad to counter it to recognize, and it's easy to say, oh, no, I'd still appreciate it. No, in reality, you probably wouldn't. But the and is also really the power comes in recognizing that you can take, I hope, I don't know if this is okay to say, but you can take the shitty stuff in life and still mesh that with the good in life and still live a fulfilling life. We've all had losses. Nobody gets through life without a loss, whether it's the death of a person, you lost a job, you got fired from a job or whatever else it is, you had to move out of town to a new town and you lost your hometown, whatever. There are so many ways that we have losses and nobody escapes without 'em, but if we only focus on that loss and not also on what we have, the gains or the good stuff, then we're missing out. And by the same token, if you think you're only supposed to focus on what you do have and forget about the painful stuff that's not healthy either, the power of and is honoring that, the pain from that loss and living that fulfilling life.
Kim (29:11):
I love that. I think it's such an important concept. I remembered you telling me about it, and I'm like, I love that. I know you're very passionate about the idea of toxic positivity. Most people are like, yeah, be positive. That's great. Talk to me about why you think positivity can be so toxic.
Gail (29:26):
Because it invalidates the negative feelings and all of our feelings, they're human. All of the emotions are human, and we have a whole range of them. And if you are only telling people to focus on the positive, you're ignoring very valid emotions. And those emotions can be warning signs for us. They can be telling us, Hey, there's something going on that you need to address. And I say this with all my love. I love my husband. However, he was trained in the positivity model. That's partly why I'm so passionate about, because I've had to kind of retrain him with myself as, no, you have to validate my feelings. Yes, I'm still going to have this pain. So that's partly why I'm so passionate. I live with it 24 7. You're like,
Kim (30:30):
It really drives me because you won't stop being so positive.
Gail (30:34):
Yeah, it is. When you invalidate somebody's feelings, you're invalidating them and their life experiences, and that creates more trauma.
Kim (30:44):
Gail, this was so great, and so talk to me about if people want to get in touch with you in terms of coaching, should they reach out to you?
Gail (30:51):
So the easiest way to find everything about me is@pathonword.com. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook and that, but if you go to pathon word.com that you're going to be able to get to all of those places, my podcast, my blog, the free resources, all of that is in one place. So that's the best way to get ahold of me.
Kim (31:13):
Great. And Gail, I know we've worked together twice, at least twice so far, and I just love working with you. I think you really, really help people. You bring such a passion for helping others. I'd love to know from you, we did video bootcamp and then we also did our Thought Leader Accelerator videos. So for video bootcamp, what do you think was most helpful for you in the course?
Gail (31:34):
Without a doubt, it was recognizing you can't make a fool of yourself on video. And even if you are, it's a good thing. It's like you're being you. So I think the most important thing that I learned from all of that is just be me, be authentic and show up. I have loved the two courses. Don't ask me the names because I never remember these things, the two courses and then the video creating the videos, the three courses, but I can't remember the names. I'm so sorry. I was just like, oh, Kim is great. I don't know, but I have sent many people to you.
Kim (32:19):
And you feel like for you, the biggest takeaway was just be yourself and start showing up on camera
Gail (32:24):
And not be afraid to show up on camera. I mean, I still was, even though I did the thing I never thought I would ever do, which was get up in front of an audience and speak, I still was like, Ooh, I don't want to be on camera. And I'd done videos.
Kim (32:43):
And talk to me about how showing up helped your coaching.
Gail (32:48):
First of all, it gave me another level of confidence because I no longer like, okay, I have to be perfect. It's not about perfection, it's about presence. That was huge to feel that level of, I can show up on camera and be myself, but people want to see who they want to know the person they're coming to. They don't want to just read a blurb or they want to know who is this person. And that is what has made a huge difference is people seeing who I am. And now because it's not rehearsed, it's just me speaking or you just see me out and about. They can see who I am as a real person instead of a scripted programmed person, if that makes sense.
Kim (33:46):
And it's helped bring people in. It's helped bring people in because they're trusting you.
Gail (33:49):
Yes.
Kim (33:50):
That was great. I just love hearing how it helps people because we all come in with our own assumptions, but it's always helpful to hear that, that it's actually bringing in people to learn from you and for you to help them.
Gail (34:01):
Yeah.
Kim (34:02):
Awesome. Gail, this was so great. I always love talking to you. So everyone can find Dr. gailMiller at pathonward.com. She is both a physician and a life coach for women who are childless, not by choice. So you can reach out to her at pathonward.com. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to exit the grind and enter success on your own terms. This is the exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Don't forget to grab my free download, how to Grow Your Business with Amazing video at kimrittberg.com and linked out in the show notes. I love to hear your feedback. Make sure to submit to me what you learned from the show and how you are crushing it on your own terms. Connect with me on Instagram or LinkedIn at Kim Rittberg, R-I-T-T-B-E-R-G. And this show is edited by Jillian Grover and produced by Henry Street Media. I'm your host and executive producer Kim Rittberg.