Ep. 55/ Emergency Manager Alicia Johnson Working In A Male-Dominated Field + On Striking Out On Your Own
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When disaster strikes and the unthinkable happens, governments, businesses and organizations turn to Alicia Johnson. She's an emergency manager, community preparedness expert and founder and CEO of Two Lynchpin Road. With 20 years of on the ground experience, she offers an essential, nuanced perspective on emergency preparedness and disaster resilience. Today she’s talking about her journey into entrepreneurship, how she balances the unpredictability of her job and parenting, what it's like to work in a male-dominated field, and what your business can do to prepare itself for a crisis.
Plus Maritza Goller, VMD, of IndeVets shares a parenting story.
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In this episode you will learn:
How to handle the shift from side hustle to a full-time business.
The challenges of being a woman in a male-dominated field.
Tips for businesses to prepare for a crisis.
Show Takeaways:
Are you prepared for an emergency, not only in your life but with your business?
When disaster strikes and the unthinkable happens, governments, businesses and organizations turn to Alicia Johnson. She's an emergency manager, community preparedness expert and founder and CEO of Two Linchpin Road. With 20 years of on the ground experience, she offers an essential, nuanced perspective on emergency preparedness and disaster resilience. Today she’s talking about her journey into entrepreneurship, what it's like to work in a male dominated field, and what your business can do to prepare itself for a crisis.
Plus Maritza Goller, VMD, aveterinary success advisor and a practicing vet at Indie Vets shares a parenting story.
“Know what your your threats and hazards are where you are.”
“ It's really that balance between how much do you put on business development, how much do you put on client deliverables, and how much do you save for yourself and your family.”
“Between coaching and amplification of your skills, I think that those are two magic pieces that have to come together in order for you to grow at whatever pace you want to grow.”
“COVID was a really difficult time to come in and be a responder and be focused solely on how do you keep 75,000 student staff and faculty safe? And right outside here is a little kid who wants to go on the bike path and struggle to hear that the playground is closed.”
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EPISODE LINKS:
Alicia Johnson’s company twolynchpinroad.com
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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Kim (00:02):
We have Alicia Johnson, an emergency manager, talking about her journey into entrepreneurship, what it's like to work in a male dominated field, and what your business can do to prepare itself for a crisis.
(00:15):
This is mom's exit interview, the show for moms who want to craft the career and life they want. Each episode, you'll meet inspirational bombs across various industries and levels who are working and living life on their own terms, and they'll bring you actionable tips from finance to business development to happiness, to crushing that imposter syndrome. I'm Kim rit. I was a burnt out media executive at Netflix, US Weekly and in TV news. I wanted a career where I was fulfilled at work but present at home with my kids. So I started working for myself and I love it, but not every day was easy or is easy. I wanted to explore with all of you how other moms were creating careers on their own terms. They're carving out flex jobs, starting their own businesses, they're taking back control. Join me and make work, work for you instead of the other way around.
(01:18):
So I just threw this amazing video shoot day for business owners in New York. It was so fun. It was basically a day where business owners flew or took the train or drove into New York City and we got hair and makeup and we filmed their stories. Me and my award-winning team got them lots of amazing social media assets. And one of the people who showed up, we talked a little bit about the idea of work life design, which I wasn't a hundred percent sure what it meant until I told her that I was joining my husband on a work trip in Bermuda. And even though I was super busy, I worked for myself. So I was like, actually, I can move my meetings on those days and I'm going to join him. And Marissa Green who started Reimagined ambition turns to me and she's like, that's exactly what work life design is.
(02:03):
You designed your work so that it could fit your life and you are able to take that trip. And I was like, oh my God, that's so cool. I didn't really, I do understand as a concept, I mean I started my own business so I could have more control over my schedule to when it actually comes into practice. And I actually see the living proof of that is really exciting. So that's just a shout out to Marissa Green who started Reimagined Ambition. She's a coach who helps you figure out a way to combine fulfilling work and a home life that you are invested in and feel present at. So that's just a little shout out to her and a little shout out to all the work I've been doing to have a work life design. Anyway, we had an amazing New York City of video shoot day.
(02:42):
We had so many great business owners come. We had the fantastic Jen Swartley, who's another fabulous coach who was in media but on a different side of media like me, burnt out and found her own path and now helps tons of others. Emily friend, an incredible healthcare communication specialist. So as marketing strategy, all of that, b p two, a great healthcare trio. And we also had Jody Claris and Feld, who is fantastic and started flourish, which is expertise and help for preemie parents. So parents whose kids were in the NICU and struggling with that. And she's starting this totally incredible organization and it was just so amazing. And Kathy Laman, a real estate agent all the way from Georgia, came up for that Tuesday day. Anyway, we had such a great time and I want to share that with you. So now onto the show.
(03:30):
When disaster strikes and the unthinkable happens, governments, businesses and organizations turn to Alicia Johnson. She's an emergency manager, community preparedness expert and founder and c e o of two linchpin road. With 20 years of on the ground experience, she offers an essential nuance perspective on emergency preparedness and disaster resilience. She's served as an expert to nato, built White House, recognized preparedness resources, and responded to countless disasters from wildfires to chemical spills to earthquakes and active shooters. When she's not skillfully managing emergencies, she can be found taking photographs and planning her next travel adventure. She's already been to six countries, 45 states and counting. Alicia, thank you for joining us,
Alicia (04:11):
Kim, it's such a pleasure to be here. I'm so excited for
Kim (04:13):
This. I feel like you're such a badass. So I want to hear about your story. I remember I met Alicia and she started telling me about the things she's done, and I'm like, wow, my only experience with disasters. I worked in news for 10 years, and so I'm familiar broadly with when something happens, what does that mean and who's involved. But Alicia, can you tell me what drew you to this career and how did you start out in this area?
Alicia (04:38):
Yeah, so actually we might have a little bit of overlap here. I went to college and when I got out, it was a trouble, trouble finding job, just issues with that. I had done an internship, but it wasn't where I wanted to land, and I just felt like I didn't want to go and be a teller at a bank because that's what all my friends were doing. And I was like, oh, no, that's not happening. So I convinced my parents that I would work for summer in their pharmacy as a pharmacy tech, and at the same time look for a new job. So I started to look for a job and I came across this ad in the newspaper. This will tell you how old this is. We don't use newspapers to find jobs anymore, but with a bunch of acronyms and specifically about emergency management.
(05:21):
And all I knew about emergency management was really what I learned in college, which was related to risk communications and crisis communications. And so I went in for the interview to date, still the hardest interview I've ever had to do. And the conversation went something like, so what do you know about emergency management? And I literally paused for a moment and thought, can I bs my way out of this? And I was like, no, no, I cannot. So I said to them, well, what I know about emergency management isn't very much, but I know that this job as a public information officer has everything to do with the blue line across the bottom of the screen. And when bad things happen, that blue line is what matters to the people that we care about. And they immediately were like, absolutely. That's totally how this job relates to that work. And so I stepped in as a public information officer in 2004 and really started to work intimately with the community that was at risk with the chemical stockpile that we had in that particular location. And have parlayed that across the west really from Colorado all the way to California to build a career that kind of connects with individuals, with organizations, with businesses to help bring preparedness to communities where they live.
Kim (06:44):
And you started out as, by the way, I have worked with many public information officers. So for the listeners, that is the person who gets out the information. It's like the communications expert within a unit. It could be a police department, a sheriff department, a state government. And so did you shift from the communications information aspect to a different field? Is that, did you stay in that area? How did that twist and turn
Alicia (07:06):
Once a public information officer? Always a public information officer, great place to start and also a great place to shift from. So I started as a public information officer and then quickly moved into getting my master's degree in public administration. And from there kind of stepped into how do I manage better programs? How do I become a better planner so that the people we communicate with know what we are doing, we know what to expect from them. And then moving into grants management and all the way, most recently as a director of emergency management for the University of California Berkeley during covid, so running an entire program of 75,000 student staff and faculty during what really ended up being the pinnacle of crisis management for the decade.
Kim (07:56):
And so your boots on the ground, basically, I live in New York, so I feel like we've had hurricanes and snowstorms and just then the things that obviously every other part of the C country also had at the same time. Are you boots on the ground, you got your FLA jacket on and you're like boots on the ground For the emergency management,
Alicia (08:14):
My role is really, it is boots on the ground, but it's not as a quote, quote responder. So I'm not the first responder with the bulletproof vest or the radio in the field necessarily inhaling the smoke. I'm actually in an operation center making sure that those responders have what they need in order to make sure that they can deal with whatever is in front of them. So we're talking about logistics, we're talking about making sure people are out of the way, that they have appropriate community organizations that they're working with to get information to on the ground to the people who are most likely impacted. So it's a different type of coordination. It's not really, you see on the television when you look at a sitcom, not a sitcom obviously,
Kim (09:02):
But Oh, what's funnier? What's funnier than emergency management? Of course,
Alicia (09:08):
The sad thing is I have been propositioned to have TV crews in our operations center to have a show about emerging management.
Kim (09:17):
Is that from the PBS type of thing? Or Parks and rec documentary,
Alicia (09:23):
Not a PBS documentary
Kim (09:26):
Aary, like they're going to make a documentary about your office. Literally,
Alicia (09:30):
There's nothing exciting that happens here. You do not want to be here.
Kim (09:35):
And where are you based right now?
Alicia (09:37):
Right now I work in Northern California, so my work is primarily west coast, but I do have clients across the United States.
Kim (09:44):
Oh, okay. Great. And how old are your kids?
Alicia (09:47):
I have one son. He just turned five. Oh,
Kim (09:50):
What does it look like being a parent and how did that change the work you do or how did it not change it?
Alicia (09:56):
It totally changed the work that I do. Before I was a parent, I worked nonstop. Most people do when they're in a career that they're trying to get an upper trajectory in, especially if you're a woman and I was a regular responder, I got paged on my phone twenty four seven, this is an issue that's happening, send out an alert, run the E O C, which the Emergency Operations Center respond, help work, all these types of things, bearing probably 50 to 60 hour workload. And then when that really all changed when I took my maternity leave, because I realized that that wasn't sustainable. I couldn't be up at 2:00 AM feeding a kid and up at 3:00 AM responding to a text message and sending out an evacuation alert. It just wasn't feasible. So I moved from where I was working with the city of San Francisco into working with uc, Berkeley, to step back from the consistent response and become a little bit more of a high level responder.
(10:58):
Of course, as I did that, we stepped into public safety, power shutdowns, wildfires, and covid. And my job became a lot more complex as my son was growing up. And we shut everything down, and this office where I am right now, became the operations center. And right outside this door was the rest of my life. That was very difficult. That was a really difficult time to come in and be a responder and be focused solely on how do you keep 75,000 student staff and faculty safe? And right outside here is a little kid who wants to get on a strider and go on the bike path and needs to hear that is going to struggle to hear that the playground is closed. And so there was this balance of how do I do that? What does that look like? And at the same time, knowing that this work really was having a very positive impact on the rest of the world, and we were doing everything we could at the time to keep people safe and to help protect them and to continue higher education at the institution I was working for.
(12:06):
And as I kind of spent many, many months walking through that process, I sort of realized that I needed to step into entrepreneurship with more of a full footing. I was side hustling and helping out some friends because I wasn't commuting anymore, so I had 15 extra hours a week. I was like, what would happen if I took 10 of those hours and help some people out? And then as I did that, I realized, oh, there's actually business here that fits me that I felt comfortable in, that I knew I could work with and that I wanted to step ahead. It did take me a long time, more than two years from side hustle to full fledged full-time to say yes to that. And so that was a journey in and of itself, but definitely has positively impacted my relationship with my son.
Kim (12:59):
So how long have you had your company so far?
Alicia (13:02):
I started this work, the consulting work as a side hustle in August, September of 2020. And was just kind of volunteering, occasionally taking on a project or two and then really full fledged. I went full-time in November of last year of 2022 and have not looked back. It has been amazing. And really the community itself has been really incredibly supportive. It's snowballed from where it was, which was can I squeeze some extra dollars out of 10 hours a week? Which is where a lot of women especially start. I have a little extra time, I need some money. What does that look like? To, okay, wait, actually there's a real business here. And it goes beyond just helping some folks and really putting myself out there and building something bigger.
Kim (13:59):
What's been the hardest part for you to shift from side hustle to entrepreneur?
Alicia (14:05):
Oh, I think the hardest part is really time management. It is tough to put out proposals and it's tough to do the R F P thing, but it's really that balance between how much do you put on business development, how much do you put on client deliverables, how much do you save for yourself and your family? Just being able to navigate that process has been, that's been the hardest part. It's a steep learning curve because when you work for someone else, a lot of that learning curve is done for you. You will do this, this is what your task looks like and this is what you get left over when you work for yourself. You get to decide those ratios on any given week or any given day. And that level of flexibility is both enticing and intimidating at the same time.
Kim (14:48):
Yeah, I a hundred percent agree with you. It's like, well, the world is your oyster, but oh my God, is that a big ocean? So are like, yeah, in theory, I always do this when I teach people how to grow their business with video and podcasts, I'm always, there's more you can do, so don't worry about that. There's always more marketing, more business development, more newsletters you can put out, but also you're a human right with other things in your life that aren't just making money serving clients. So you have to balance that and say, when is enough enough? Otherwise you're in that hustle culture tornado of just never ending cycle of more and more and more.
Alicia (15:25):
That I think is what disaster management has taught me. It's okay to go hard for a very short amount of time because that's what the situation requires, but if you can't shut it off, if you can't transition into a more smooth replicable pace, you're going to bring yourself out so quickly. And responders all over the world really, really struggle with that.
Kim (15:47):
And it's interesting, what I found similar to you, it took me two years. I had such clarity that I was going to start my own business or that I didn't want to continue to work the way I was working. Media is pretty, it's great. It can be really fun. You're always learning, but it's a lot of hours and there's travel. At the level that I was at, there was definitely travel, and I was working in the delivery room with my second child. I'm like, no, there's got to be a different way. But it still took me two more years. I still took two other full-time jobs. I did a little bit of side hustling in what I had done. I probably earned a total of $7,000 on my own. And I was like, I don't know how this is a full-time business. I don't see it.
(16:28):
I didn't envision it, but at some point I just had pull the rip cord and be like, I know how to hustle. There's one thing I know how to do is work really, really hard and make something happen. What I don't have is the foundational knowledge of the structure of the business and the strategy, and now I'm leveling up in all of those other ways in terms of revenue streams and operationalizing and getting the right apps and all that stuff. My zone of geniuses in being really creative, being really strategic and messaging. But those other things were not there. I didn't have them, but I you was really committed to just figuring it out. I just thought, oh, I have a lot of skills and I know that people need video. I'm definitely, it's not like I'm trying to sell grandma phones in the 21st century.
(17:09):
I have a skillset that is marketable and it's up to me to figure out what does that mean today? And if you told me five years ago that I would have, a majority of my clients would be people I've never met in person, I would say, I don't understand what you're talking about. What is this business? What is this business? So to your point, it takes a while. It can take a while, and it's kind of scary at first. I mean, I'm loving it and I would not go back in this iteration of my life. I'm definitely not going back to full-time work, full-time, someone else's company rather.
Alicia (17:38):
But at least for me, the key was what do I need in order to bridge the gap between what I know how to do is emergency preparedness and community preparedness and running a business that is that thing. And so for me, that ability to say, Hey, while I'm side hustling and I don't necessarily need all of this income, whatever that is, I can put some of that towards education and coaching so that I'm better prepared if I choose to launch. And when I started the conversation, it went something like, so I want to do this. I don't even know if it's a real thing. I was like, I don't even know if I can actually make money doing this. I mean, I think I can, but can I actually make enough to live in northern California, right? Because we're not talking peanuts here. And I started talking to my consulting friends and I was like, okay, so you do this.
(18:34):
Is there money here? Is this a covid bubble? Can I make it work? I had one person who I still work with now, she lives in Hilo in Hawaii, or excuse me, she lives in, not in Hilo, but she lets live in Hawaii. And we were talking about if it was possible, and she was like, yeah, you'll never starve. And I was like, ok, I alright. The word for it. And just having that level of clarity of being able to actually lower my guard enough to ask those really important questions and seek the coaching that was needed, helped pave that way. It made the ramp so much shorter.
Kim (19:12):
And I assume it's the same in your background, but I have found that when I was at companies, the opacity around salary and pay and all of that stuff, I was so used to being asking someone what they earn is asking them how much they weigh. And I would never ask because I thought it was so offensive. And now that I work for myself, I just say to people, let me know. Can I ask you? Or what do you charge? Or what do your peers charge? Because it's that information. And then I also think one of the things I learned in TV and video as I became an executive, I can't make an entire TV show by myself. I can't make a video unit by myself. And you have to entrust other people who are really experts. And I leaned into that. I have said I have deficits in certain areas.
(19:54):
Who can I lean on for those? An administrative assistant is better at those things than I am, or a video editor is going to edit better than me, and that's a good use of my time. That's a good way for me to delegate. And just certain things being real about when it's time to bring in someone who knows more than you. And so I think that's helped me because I'm now hiring other people to help me scale and grow my business. And then I'm also on the other end receiving clients and I'm helping them turn themselves from professionals to thought leaders. So I'm practicing what I preach, if you will. I've leveled up with a business coach this year. I've taken a course, I have assistants that I delegate things too. So to your point about building it out,
Alicia (20:33):
Building that team is so valuable, not just like, here's your VA and you pay them monthly. Maybe they're not a full-time employee, but you support them, they support you and you support their work. And also, at least in the work that I do as a consultant, some of these contracts are massive. They can't be done by a team of one with a 10 99. They have to have multiple capacity. You have to be part of a bigger team, a bigger grouping of people. And so finding those other folks in your industry that you share similar values with, that you have similar interests that you can augment their capacity and talking about that, whether that comes on LinkedIn where you're having conversations with folks and saying, Hey, what are you doing? Are you connecting with those folks? Are you, I think we have a very close friend, Leah Neaderthal, who constantly talks about shoulder tapping and the importance of having those kind of connections with folks. And I think that's really the key, right, in saying not just with clients, but also with people who will help you amplify what you're actually already doing and between coaching and amplification of your skills. I think that's, those are two magic pieces that have to come together in order for you to grow at whatever pace you want to grow.
Kim (21:49):
Absolutely. And talk to me about your village. When you look at your home life and your work life, who's a part of your village to make it all happen?
Alicia (21:58):
My village is changing all the time, and that includes everything from my family to support mechanisms around whether that's babysitters or grandparents or preschool or whatever that looks like as my son enters into school full-time as a kindergartner, that is going to change things for us in terms of what that looks like and how we support that. I've even noticed a change seasonally whether we're in the winter and things are a little bit more complex because we have illness or we're in the summer and we need to be outside and getting as much energy out as possible. So there's a lot of nuance there. That's definitely a piece I have not yet cracked. Whatever magic code there is, if there is one. So any tips, welcome. But just that deeper conversation about a really similar to consulting and to building a business, actually asking for help when you need it, making sure that you tap into that deep network to say, look, here's what I have. Here's where I need to go. Who can help me fix this problem? And that can be everything from how do you maintain your home to what do you do with your kid when you have an emergency thing and that child needs some attention? What does that look like? So I think the network is deep and vast and constantly changing.
Kim (23:21):
People ask me, they're like, you seem so happy. I'm, my mom lives around the corner and she offers us mental health nights and she'll just be like, do you and Alex want to go grab a burger and a beer? I say, yes, we do. I'm, yeah, that's not going to pretend that that's not happening. That's happening. That's a huge, that makes a huge difference in terms of sometimes I feel like a lot of us, we feel somebody's fed to the home. You can't leave your house until someone else is in the house. You literally can't walk around the block without making sure somebody else is there. That was a huge adjustment for me becoming a parent, you know, live so independently. I've been to 33 countries by the way, and competition.
Alicia (23:57):
I'm getting there,
Kim (23:58):
But maybe not as many states as you, so that's good. But I do think that's a big adjustment. I want to talk to me about being a woman in a male dominated field. Talk to me about your experiences there.
Alicia (24:08):
Yeah, I don't know anything other than that. It is hard, really hard. It wasn't until very, very recently after I had set out on the consulting adventure that I realized that I had just recently been recognized and felt like I have what it takes to do this and do it well, that I am actually good at my job. Up until six months ago, I was constantly fighting for that internally, right? I was, I'm good, I can do this, I can do that. I can do everything. You can do backwards and in heels as Ginger Rogers was to Fred Stair. And only recently have, I felt like, actually, you know what? I can do it better because I have all these other elements. I have empathy of being a parent, not just any parent, but also a mother. I have been a responder and an evacuee of a disaster simultaneously.
(25:01):
I know what it's like to come back to a community that has been ravaged by wildfire and watch them rebuild and be a part of that process. I've walked huge public institutions through one of the most brutal disasters we've had and come out on the other side with not losing anyone. And I think that is a huge part of that. Just understanding what that looks like and then embracing that and owning it that up until recently wasn't even feasible for me because you were always competing with somebody who had more power, more clarity, a louder voice, some piece of knowledge you didn't have, right? For whatever. Maybe you didn't even have access to it. And so I think that has really helped me understand that. I think the other thing that I've really learned to appreciate is that my personal experiences have really brought a new type of light here to my work, which has allowed me to reach out to organizations and individuals and communities in a way that the average emergency manager who is white and male, doesn't have access to. And that has really worked in my favor.
Kim (26:12):
Alicia, being that you're an emergency preparedness expert, what tips do you have for businesses to prepare for a crisis?
Alicia (26:19):
That's a great question. I think the number one tip is just to know what your threats and hazards are where you are. So if you're in a certain area of the country and you're more susceptible to tornadoes or to earthquakes or something like that, right? So having the knowledge of that. The next thing I would say is that the very most important piece is to transparently talk about what those things are. Take the fear away and the way you take the fear away is to continually have those conversations in a way that's not threatening, in a way that's not scary, but has a deeper meaning and conversation. I'm thinking about this, and therefore you should also think about it. Here's how I'm preparing us as a company, my own family. Here's how you should prepare yourself and your family. Let's have that kind of transparency of communication.
(27:09):
And then I think the third part of that is to actually do some of the work, right? Check with your insurance agent, make sure you have appropriate coverages and you know what's going to happen. If you have a brick and mortar, make sure your building is safe. If you don't have a brick and mortar, have alternative options, right? Whether you might need a generator for internet access or you're going to relocate temporarily to another location. Really dig deep into what those potential conversations might be and what you expect. And then have, again, share those transparently with your employees, with your 10 90 nines, with your partners, with your suppliers. Have that kind of more transparent type of conversation so that you really are able to move forward in what that looks like in a crisis.
Kim (27:51):
Amazing. Alicia, thank you so much. This is such a great conversation.
Alicia (27:55):
Thank you so much, Kim. I really appreciate it.
Kim (27:59):
And you can find Alicia Johnson on LinkedIn or her company at Two Linchpin Road. That's t w lynchpin road.com. I love hearing stories from real moms like you. This one's from Maritza Goler Vmd. She's the mom to two young boys and is the veterinary success advisor and a practicing vet at Indie Vets, a veterinary staffing company based in Philadelphia.
Maritza (28:21):
Hi, my name's Maritsa Goler and I'm a veterinarian in the Philadelphia area. I would say that my biggest parenting win has been finding a job in the veterinary field that has allowed me to feel fulfilled, but also lets me be the mom I've always wanted to be to my two young little boys. If you are in the veterinary field or in healthcare in general, you know how hard it is to find that elusive work-life balance. You become a parent and your priority shift, you want to be there for the big and the small moments in their lives. I remember during my first pregnancy thinking, how am I going to be a veterinarian and a mom? I hadn't taken off for the first six years of my career. I never called out sick, I worked late. I was working weekends. How was I going to find that balance?
(29:06):
And veterinarians in general, we do give a lot of ourselves to the profession, and that is both physically and emotionally. And sometimes you do have to step back and realize it's time to take care of yourself and your family. So I'm so grateful that I found a veterinary staffing company called Indie Vets that lets me take control of my schedule so that I could be there for the cute little Mother's Day daycare brunch, which was adorable, or potty training. I mean, potty training is so hard, and I didn't realize it until I was in the thick of it with my two-year-old son. And I mean chasing him with cleaning supplies, cleaning the walls and the floors, and watching him pee off of the staircase. So really in it. But what was amazing is that I was able just to move my schedule around and have five days of freedom to watch this little naked boy running around. I never touched my P T o, I just shifted things around. So that sort of flexibility is just amazing. And so honestly, I think being a parent is difficult, whether you're staying at home or trying to mix it with work, but finding the balance that works for you is truly the biggest win.
Kim (30:11):
Thank you so much for listening. Make sure to drop a review, and if you want to send in a real mom moment that we'll share on the air, check out moms exit interview.com. And if you're a professional or small business owner looking to grow your brand through amazing content with no silly dances and with no burnout, check out my website, kim rit bird.com, and you can hit contact to chat with me. And thanks for listening. Like this is the most amazing community. You guys send in the best feedback. So share it with your friends. Let anyone know who you think would appreciate it. And this is Mom's Exit interview. I'm your host and executive producer, Kim Rit. The show is produced by Henry Street Media. Jillian Grover edited this episode, and Eliza Friedlander is our editorial producer and publicist. I'll see you next time.