Ep.75/ How To Retain Your Employees with Erica Keswin

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Want to know how to be a better leader and keep your employees? Workplace strategist and bestselling author of The Retention Revolution: 7 Surprising (and Very Human!) Ways to Keep Employees Connected to Your Company, Erica Keswin joins us to cover questions like this: How do you have hard conversations with your staff? How do you make your employees feel heard? How much in-person face-to-face time do you need? How do you craft and communicate your company values? What does professional development look like for Gen Z (we have all heard this matters even more to the next gen!)?

Erica Keswin is a bestselling author, internationally sought after speaker, and workplace strategist. Her first two bestselling books Bring Your Human to Work: 10 Surefire Ways to Design a Workplace That’s Good for People, Great for Business, and Just Might Change the World (McGraw Hill 2018), and Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines Into Workplace Magic (McGraw Hill 2021) were widely discussed in media outlets like Good Morning America, MSNBC and Live with Kelly & Ryan, as well as many print articles and reviews. Her latest book is called The Retention Revolution: 7 Surprising (and Very Human!) Ways to Keep Employees Connected to Your Company and will set leaders up for success in this new world of work.

When Erica isn’t writing books and offering keynotes, she coaches top-of-the-class businesses, organizations, and individuals to help them improve their performance by honoring relationships in today’s hybrid workplace. Erica is honored to be one of Marshall Goldsmith’s Top 100 Coaches, as well as one of Business Insider’s most innovative coaches. She’s also the founder of the Spaghetti Project, a roving ritual devoted to sharing the science and stories of relationships at work. Erica lives in New York City with her husband Jeff, three children and her labradoodle, Cruiser.

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Quotes from our guest:

“Helping them to develop up down and sideways we know, especially for Gen Z is even more important than compensation.”
“The importance of being a human professional is critical. When we talk about Gen Z, they're taking over the workplace in numbers if. You don't check in with them and connect with them as full humans they will leave.”

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The Retention Revolution: 7 Surprising (and Very Human!) Ways to Keep Employees Connected to Your Company

Erica Keswin Website

Kim (00:02):

How do you retain your staff? How much in-person face-to-face time do you need? And what does Gen Z really want out of workplace? Plus, how do you have those hard conversations at work? Workplace strategist and author of the Retention Revolution, Erica Keswin is here. Welcome to the Exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Do you work for yourself and want to supercharge your business while still having fun? Well, this is your go-to podcast part MBA Part Cheer Squad. Every week I'll be joined by top business owners who share the secrets to their success. After I found myself working during childbirth true story, I quit my executive media job to bet on myself fighting the fear and imposter syndrome to eventually earn six awards, an in-demand speaking career and features in Fast Company and Business Insider. Now I'm here to celebrate all you rock stars betting on yourself, and I want to help you win. Tune in every Wednesday to hear from remarkable founders and don't miss our Solo Friday episodes, a treasure trove of video and podcasting mini masterclasses with me. Exit the Grind, enter success on your own terms. Don't forget to subscribe today and grab my free video tips at my website, kimrittberg.com.

(01:20):

If you like the show, please leave a rating and a review. And I wanted to let you know I recently met our guest, Erica, when we were both speakers at the Fast Company Innovation Festival in New York City. I heard her speak about retention and the workplace and I was really excited to have her on and bringing in her research and her advice. And if you're looking to be a better leader and keep your employees, Erica Keswin is the perfect guest. She's a workplace strategist and bestselling author of two books, the latest being The Retention Revolution, seven, surprising and Very Human Ways to Keep Employees Connected to Your Company. Erica and I cover questions like, how do you have hard conversations with your staff? How do you make your employees feel heard? How much face-to-face time do you really need? How do you craft and communicate company values?

(02:02):

And what does professional development look like for Gen Z? And we have all heard that this matters even more to the next generation. We all know what it's like to have a bad boss. Maybe you've even been a bad boss, I won't tell. But the importance of what happens whether you're running a three person company or a thousand person company, or if you're a worker at one, it's crucial to success. I also wanted to note before we start, this interview was conducted on October 12th, a few days after the worst terror attack in the history of Israel, the worst moment for Jews since the Holocaust. And it was a really stressful day. And so it raised the point also in our conversation as a leader, how do you handle difficult conversations at work? How do you talk about those issues that are really challenging around the country and around the world?

(02:49):

So I just wanted to give you a little context before we start. And again, here's my interview with Erica Keswin. Alright, we have joining us Erica Keswin. She's a bestselling author internationally sought after speaker and workplace strategist. Her forthcoming book is called The Retention Revolution, seven, surprising and Very Human Ways to Keep Employees Connected to Your Company And it will set leaders up for success in the new world of work when she's not writing books and doing keynotes. She coaches top of the class businesses, organizations, and individuals to help them improve their performance by honoring relationships in today's hybrid workplace. Erica is honored to be one of Marshall Goldsmith's top 100 coaches. That's very cool. As well as business insider's, most innovative coaches. And she's the founder of the Spaghetti Project, a roving ritual devoted to sharing the science and stories of relationships at work. She lives in New York City with her husband, Jeff, three children and her Labradoodle Cruiser. Got a love Labradoodle. Erica, thank you for joining us.

Erica (03:37):

So great to see you.

Kim (03:39):

And for the listeners, Erica and I already had this interview booked and then we ran into each other. We were both speakers at the Fast Company Innovation Festival, so that was very fun.

Erica (03:46):

Yeah.

Kim (03:47):

Awesome. So I would love to jump in. I saw some of Erica's speech at the Fast Company Festival, but I'd love to jump right in to the retention revolution. What are some of the biggest advice you can give people who are leading a team and whether that team is two people or 10 people or 50 people?

Erica (04:03):

So when I think about what's gone on, especially post covid in the last couple of years, but I will also pause to say that a lot of the trends I was seeing, they didn't start three and a half years ago. I was already seeing them, but the pandemic accelerated them. So when I think about employee retention, whether you have a big company, a small company, a team, if you have a small team, you don't even want to lose. One or two people really could set you back. The ideas in the book are relevant in my opinion, regardless of where the pendulum is swinging. And what I mean by that is the last couple years we've gone from the great resignation to the Great Recession, to being in the office to being at home, to being back in the office, to having the employers feeling like they have the so-called power to the employees having the power and back and forth.

(04:49):

I mean, it's dizzying. And what the pandemic did in terms of accelerating all of this is in my opinion, is that we've begun to figure out what do we do? What do we need to do to retain employees? What do we need to do to retain clients, to retain customers, irrespective of the pendulum swing. Because even if you think right now, oh, well my people aren't going to leave, where are they going to go? I had a meeting this morning at a financial services company and they said, well, where are they going to go? Well, in a year from now, six months from now, it just keeps changing. And so retaining people is, it's all about being human at work. It's all about how do we curate connection and how do we make people feel connected to our company, to the mission and our values and to each other.

(05:35):

And so why did I call it a revolution? It's a big word to put in a title and I wasn't really sure if I should do it. But in a nutshell, the retention revolution is about being really intentional about how you onboard getting people connected early and often to what you're about as a company or even as an individual leader when your employees are working with you, helping them to develop up, down and sideways. We know especially for Gen Z, even more important than compensation, they want to feel like they're growing and if they are not, they will leave and treating them as humans and whole humans, which we can talk about. But then when the day comes, and it most likely will because this new generation moves around a lot, it's very different when the person comes to you and says, you know what?

(06:21):

I am leaving and found something else to try to refrain from what I might want to do, which is don't let the door hit you in the behind to try to think about ways to leave, to leave gracefully. Because what we're seeing is that work is becoming much more of a virtuous cycle. It is going to be much more common for people to come to work, to leave, and maybe even to come back. And so that's really this retention revolution. And the things in the book, which I know we'll get to in detail are things that we need to think about as leaders, irrespective again of where this pendulum is.

Kim (06:55):

Talk to me about using technology in terms of keeping employees and connecting with them through technology. What's your advice around that?

Erica (07:04):

So I talk about something that's called How do we find the sweet spot between tech and Connect? How do we leverage technology for all of its greatness? And look, you and I are on technology right now, right? We are looking at each other and knock on wood like everybody's wifi is working and we're having this conversation which we could not be having in this way without technology. But I will say that we also need to put that technology in its place and connect on a deeper level. And in organizations, and this is cheesy, but I often say left to our own devices, excuse the cheesy pun, we're not connecting. And so whether you're at a company that's coming in two days a week, four days a week, twice a year where you get together maybe or every quarter, if we don't curate those moments of connection, we will see more people leaving our organizations.

(07:56):

And I'll say as an aside, I do feel a different level of connection with you in this moment because we met in person and I didn't feel for those that are, you don't know what happened almost before this, but we start a little bit late. We were just shooting the breeze about some different things and we had some things that were going on this morning. And I really think that there was this, because we had had this sort of personal connection, at least that's how I was feeling. It was very different than logging on to someone that you didn't have any connection with. It really just matters.

Kim (08:31):

And to your point, you don't need to encourage five days a week and for smaller companies, but even just a point of connection, a lunch, a dinner, a coffee check-in, just like really that face-to-face connection.

Erica (08:43):

And so you have to start with what is your business strategy? What is your people's strategy? Where do people live? I mean, I had a company that I worked with that said, you know what? We're coming in three days a week. But then when they really pulled the layers back, they were like, oh, shoot, 30% of our people are covid migrants and move during the pandemic. So what ended up happening with this somewhat arbitrary decision was that the people that were close by were annoyed and frustrated, oh, I have to come in and the other people don't. And the people that couldn't come in, they're based in New York City, but these people live in North Carolina. They were like, well, I'm feeling disconnected because I can't go in. We need to put a stake in the ground. And what I say to people is, as you're trying to figure out what that stake in the ground is, approach it through the lens of vulnerability as a leader.

(09:31):

You know what haven't been through a global pandemic. This is challenging for me too. Number two, through the lens of empathy. Look, I know Kim, that you've been two steps forward, one step back, and we've been in, we've been out. And that's not easy for you, it's not easy for anybody. But then the third is approach it through the lens of experimentation that we're going to try this, it may not work, and we may try it again. So an example, last week I just was in Seattle for a group at Microsoft where a good portion of the people live in Seattle, but many don't, and they're not making the move. There are companies right now that are making people move back, but this group was not. But twice a year, they have a very intentional gathering called Team Week, and it's five days, everybody comes to Seattle and it's very intentional.

(10:18):

What we do that week is that we connect, they have a volunteer day, they meet in small group meetings. I was lucky enough to be invited to kick off team week with the idea of, okay, everybody, and this is what I said to them, you are here physically, I see you all. But that is very different than being here mentally, psychologically, that I urge you to. The company has invested a lot of money for you to be here, but you've also left your families, you've gotten on a plane and you're here. So be intentional, be present. Focus on building those relationships because what the data shows is that once you've met people in person, you can amortize the heck out of those relationships until the next time you see them. It's kind of like the way I was feeling when we connected today, that once you've met someone in person, and I'm sure everybody listening can relate to this, the tone and the tenor of your communication via technology, it just ends up being different.

Kim (11:13):

I love that point about the in-person connection can amortize. How often would you say it's important to have those check-ins with these remote workforces?

Erica (11:24):

I've seen it work. I mean, there are companies that have been remote from the beginning that Covid create this. And so I've seen companies that find it really successful once a year. I've seen companies that are really successful doing it twice a year, doing it quarterly. I've also seen companies where they come in four days a week and no one feels connected. So again, it's less about the number. But for Microsoft for example, once everybody was together, I urge them to then say, okay, this is one. They talk a lot about creating moments that matter. And so team week is a big moment that matters, but you can't stop there. So how do you continue to check in with your team, whether it's once a week, how does a manager check in with his or her direct reports? That is something that I've seen a big shift since The pandemic, which is there's a chapter in the book called Being a Human Professional is not an oxymoron.

(12:19):

And what I saw as I interviewed tons of leaders during the pandemic and over the last three and a half years was that for many of us during that time, some people, it came naturally and some didn't. I used to live in downtown Manhattan, and I lived there during nine 11 and during nine 11 and in the beginning of March of 2020 or March 14th, 2020 and beyond, it was a time where the whole country really came together and people had their zoom screens with their kids in the background, with dogs barking, with technology breaking down. And leaders during that time were saying, how are you really, really doing? And they asked it, and I believe that most of them actually cared what the answer was. So now fast forward, and while I would not want to go back to March of 2020, I don't want to also forget everything about what we saw and how we felt.

(13:10):

And so we need to keep checking in. And I have a chapter in the book about not just physically curating connection, but even virtually making sure that you continue to check in and ask people, even we're recording this on October 12th, and as we know there's a lot going on right now in the Middle East and you have employees that really are not okay. And so we need to keep checking in with people. And it doesn't have to be 60 minutes of a 60 minute meeting like it was back then, or even 30 minutes of a 60 minute meeting, which it was a year into the pandemic, but it literally can be, let's all go around and let's describe one word. Let's have everybody share one word that describes how you're showing up today. And if somebody asked me today what that word is, I would say stressed.

(14:01):

I have three kids in college and we're Jewish and there's a lot going on in college campus and they all came home last night and they're all home. And so if somebody asked me, I wouldn't necessarily share all of that in this check-in, but if someone said to me, how are you feeling? And I said, stressed, the idea would be if you and I were emailing that day later in the day and you didn't hear back from me, and this is why there's an impact on the bottom line of a business, this is why this is a business issue. If I say that I'm stressed or overwhelmed or sad or whatever it is today and you're on my team and you don't hear back from me right away with an email, you're going to give me a little bit of grace. And if you're my manager, this is gold in many ways that you then have the opportunity to call me later in the day and say, Erica, I heard you say stressed or really upset, or whatever. You said, what's going on? And when you talk about retention, people leave managers. They often don't leave companies. And so the importance of being a human professional is critical. And then the last thing I'll say on this, again, when we talk about Gen Z, they're taking over the workplace and numbers. If you don't check in with them and connect with them as full humans, they will leave.

Kim (15:15):

So your advice would be during times of stress or crisis, things are going on in the world, just check in a very simple way and leave the door open.

Erica (15:24):

I would check in even when things aren't going on in the world. I mean, I would extra check in with that, but I believe in building it into a practice. And yes, with what's going on in the world now or with Covid, all of these, George Floyd's murder, the Highland Park shooting, all of these things, I wrote an article in Harvard Business Review about a company called Weber Shandwick that was called Time to Connect. And one of the things that Judith Harrison does, she's the chief diversity officer, and she started it after George Floyd, was that she creates this open forum for anybody in the organization to come to connect around these big issues. So I would say that's critical, but that's in response to these big things. I believe that, again, for two reasons. One, the new generation, this is what they want. They want to feel connected to purpose, to bigger issues, to what their company values, and they want to feel connected to their boss and to their colleagues.

(16:18):

So that's Gen Z, but then the rest of us got a taste of a different type of a leader over the last three years. So we're like, oh, we kind of like that. We want leaders that actually check in. So one of the examples in the book, and this is almost like a funny one, which is a company called Mural, and they have a check-in that it's become a ritual. I actually wrote a book on rituals, and I think check-ins should become rituals where they have a ritual called Pick your Nick. And what it is is in the beginning of a meeting, everybody goes around and there's an image of nine pictures of Nicholas Cage, and it shows him, it's a cartoon of him. It reflects him doing something in all the movies that he's in. And each one has a word, one will say stressed, one says carefree, one says happy, one says meh. One says bees, which I don't really know what that is, but bees and everybody goes around before the meeting starts and they pick their nick and it's become a thing and it's sticky. And if again, someone says stressed, it gives people an opportunity to follow up later to connect with their colleague. As a human,

Kim (17:23):

What do you do when people's, I feel like especially when there's current events happening and it's more of a hot topic and people come from their own perspectives and maybe there's clashes, I think that sometimes people are worried that when you say something, you open it up and that opening can end up leading to more, I don't want to say conflict, but a situation that they're not ready for.

Erica (17:43):

Yes. So you need to have rules of the road. And companies are, especially what's gone on over the last couple of years are really, this is new territory for a lot of people in companies. And it can be scary for sure. And when I spoke to Judith Harrison about her time to connect, she was supposed to have one tomorrow, but instead, given what's going on in the world, she moved it to Monday of this week, 327 people showed up all different kinds of people. Some people just listen. Some people engage in the chat. I mean, Kim, to your point, talk about an amazing use of technology. 327 people from all the country showed up to connect around these issues. Now, that could be scary. What she does is she reads sort of a statement in the beginning, kind of setting the stage. She brings her own vulnerability to that moment, and I love this part.

(18:33):

She ends it with a question and she says, how are you doing? And then she opens it up, but she says, we are coming to this as humans and we are keeping politics out of it. So she has to cut people off, and she really has to monitor what goes on because if you don't have rules of the road that, look, this is the workplace, but at the same time, we want connection and we are here to support. I think when you're doing any of these things, again, whether you're onboarding, whether you're in a meeting, whether you're talking about certain issues, if you're at a fork in the road and you don't know how to do it, I say the litmus test is your organization's values should drive you, should you take a left? Should you take a right, should you talk about an issue?

(19:15):

Should you not? Should you hire this person? Should you fire this person? Your values should drive you. And if your values can't, I'm kind of obsessed with company values. Again, this could be for a huge company or for a startup that the values help drive the behaviors. You shouldn't have too many. Some companies have 10, 12, 14 values. Nobody can remember what they are. Three to six is the sweet spot. But if you're listening to this, I think it's a really good time. As we navigate flexible work, as we navigate the mental health issues that people have, all of these things that have gone on since the pandemic, I think it is a good time to take a look at those values.

Kim (19:50):

And I think that's where sometimes smaller companies, it's a little scarier for them because they don't have that person, the HR person, the people person, the DEI person, and they feel like, oh, well, how do I talk about this? I don't know how to talk about this. And then so they avoid it. I see that in a lot of the smaller companies, they're not really sure what to do.

Erica (20:07):

But I think it's even more important because look, as a founder, and this is one of the things someone said to me was that if you don't say anything, there's always going to be a culture. So there's going to be a culture by intention or there's going to be a culture by default. And when you're a startup, every single person that you hire, especially in the beginning, is a very strong, as a percentage representative of that culture. I mean, they are championing that culture. So I think it's, it's even more important. And again, if you're not totally sure what it's going to be, you can approach it through the lens of we are figuring it out. Because then if you don't take the time in the beginning to think about the values and what they mean for the organization, the rest of it, it's hard to align all of the rest of your processes. How do you think about learning and development? How do you think about recruiting? How do you say no to a big client potentially that yeah, you're a startup and you need the money, but this is not the right thing for you. It's really hard.

Kim (21:07):

It's funny what you were saying earlier about the in-person stuff. So I worked at Netflix who has this really intentional retreat, and it was fun. We went to this sort of sleepaway camp type of place in California, and it was very spirited. It was like games and connection and Netflix is very, talk about your feelings and there was a lot of that stuff. But I thought it was a great thing to have us all get together, connect. I was a remote person basically the New York office is very small. It was maybe 20 or 50 people.

Erica (21:36):

Kim (21:36):

Had 3000. One thing, I will say though that I like the in person. I think it is important, and I would have to basically go to California just to check in and connect with people. I enjoyed it. I thought it was valuable, but I also was like, I have two small children. I don't want to be going to California for four days at a time just to schmooze. I think that it's like, I agree with you that the importance of face-to-face, it cannot be underestimated. But I do think as companies try to keep more parents, more working parents, especially moms, it's hard. You have to balance the, I'd rather it be an intentional four days and then the other times it's quarterly or whatever. But expecting people to travel across the country for four days when they have little kids just to schmooze, literally not separate from my actual work that needed to happen that I would also be traveling for.

(22:23):

I felt ambivalent. I felt that it was good. I was getting to know people, but I also was like, is this really a great use of my time? I should be? It's like that's not really where I'm at in terms of my life, but I agree with you about the value of that. So anyway, with my own personal input on the face-to-face stuff, I'd love to hear a little bit about how people can handle professional development. How do you build up the people working for you? It's obviously such an important part of growing them and making them feel like you invest in them is actually investing in them. Talk to me about your take about professional development.

Erica (22:53):

I think it's huge. I think there's a lot of low hanging fruit. I think that, again, going back to new employees coming into the workplace, the new Gallup study found that for many people in that younger generation, it's even more important than compensation. If they don't feel like they are growing on the job, they will leave. Especially in big companies, but also in small companies. Gone are the days of all the rungs in the ladder. I mean, for a long time companies have been flattening their organizations, and so leaders need to get creative about how to develop people in all different ways. So in the book, I talk about it in three ways. One is early and often with no strings attached. I mean, some companies, even if learning is important to you and if learning is a value, talk about it in the onboarding show.

(23:38):

People even recruiting before somebody has joined during onboarding, give them an opportunity to learn and develop as a person mean. They'd be like, wow, they really mean this. The no strings attached I think is interesting because back in the day, you help somebody to go back to school or get a degree or a certification, you then kind of owed them these years. And now what people are saying is like, what do you mean? I've only been here for the last three years because you've been helping me get this degree. So it's a big shift. I'm not seeing that everywhere, but I am seeing it starting to percolate. The second is up, down and sideways. And again, even mentioning when you had two small kids, I have a woman in the book named Debbie Lovich who is at BCG, and she shared with me that she was the fastest woman promoted to partner and then the slowest from partner to senior partner, and she had four kids in the middle, but we can't assume that everybody at the same time in their lives wants to be going up that ladder.

(24:32):

She was thrilled to take a more internal facing office role, still very strategic, but didn't want to be on the road and didn't want to be responsible for building business. Kids got older and she went right back at it. If we can get creative and really ask people, some might be willing to take a step back. And not just women. Again, this new generation, it's much more equal in terms of people wanting other things or you have somebody that then needs to take care of their elderly parents. You just never know. And then the last part is about taking professional development personally. And whether that's saying, you know what? A lot of people think professional development is just helping them with the technical skills in ways that are directly or tangentially related to their job. But many companies are saying, here, here's a stipend. This guy said, oh, I took an improv class.

(25:20):

I just wanted to learn and grow, and it actually made me better in my job at sales. I want to share one quick example again, especially as we think about what a manager could do with four people that work for her or a small company, it's not in the book. So I really want to share it because when you write a book, you have to cut it off, and then you hear these great examples and you're like, oh, can't believe it's not in the book. But this woman shared that she has a team, and she went and said to the team, look, I cannot control some of these macroeconomic swings and big picture strategy of what the company's going to do, but here's what I can tell you. I'm committed to your growth and development. And she said, this is what I want you to do.

(25:57):

I want everybody on the team to go find a job description that is a job that looks like something you might want to have in three to five years. It can be, let's say it's Netflix, it could be here at Netflix, or it could be really anywhere. I just want to see the job description and then let's look at the skills you need to do that job successfully in three to five years. And then let's look at your current skills and let's look at the gaps. What I can commit to you is that I will help you close those gaps. It could cost money or it might not cost anything. It could be her coaching them, it could be finding somebody else on the team to sit with them to learn some technical skills. Who knows what it is. But if it were me back in the day, I would not look to leave that company. I'm like, wow, they're creating an ecosystem of growth within this company and I'm happy. I just don't feel like I have anywhere to go. And you're going to keep those people for an extra six months, an extra year, who knows how long, and then all of a sudden, another role, a higher role might come up. You just never know.

Kim (26:52):

I love that. And I think it's also the acknowledgement, understanding no one's going to stay somewhere forever. So if you can keep them longer, contributing better, and then you are helping them, I think the idea is like you were saying, oh, why not invest in them? People leave at some point anyway, but they might not. They might not, but they're going to leave. So you might as well keep them happy, help them grow, be a part of their growth. And before we go, tell me quickly, what were you doing before you became a workplace strategist? You had your own pivot, so what did you do?

Erica (27:19):

Well, it's funny. It's like you don't go to, maybe there is now, but back in the day, there wasn't a college major that was like workplace strategist. I always thought I was going to be a lawyer. So I started in management consulting. I worked for Booz Allen and then had a friend that worked more on the human resources consulting side at William Mercer. I didn't know what that was, but I said, you know what? I want to do something that's more connected to the people side of business. People would always say, oh, it's the soft stuff. So I went back to business school for my MBA to really look at it from a bottom line, ROI perspective. So I went to Kellogg and focused on organizational behavior, but also management and leadership. And from there worked at the Hay group doing HR consulting. I worked at Russell Reynolds doing executive recruiting.

(28:00):

I worked at NYU in their business school as a coach. So it's always been, I describe it as helping companies improve performance through people. And then kind of long story, but my family, we took a family sabbatical to move to a ski town when my kids were little and just said, you know what? We're going to get out of New York City. And while I was there, I connected with a professor who was writing a book about the impact of technology on connection, and she was a psychologist and was looking at connection in education with your spouse, with your kids. And I said, you know what? If you're going to look at this in business, I would love to help you. I'm your girl. And so I worked with her and then said, you know what? Technology's not going away. Business is not going away. And I just sort of launched into this on my own, not having no idea where it would lead, quite frankly.

Kim (28:48):

Amazing. And let our listeners know where they can find you, where they could buy. Your book is available now on Amazon, right?

Erica (28:54):

Yeah, the book is everywhere. Local bookstore, Amazon, it's Barnes and Noble can go to my website, ericakeswin.com and would love for, I do a monthly ish newsletter. So you can subscribe to that and hear about all these new examples that I keep uncovering that are not in the book. And yeah, I speak at companies, I do leadership offsites and work with companies to help them develop more human leaders.

Kim (29:18):

Awesome. Thank you so much, Erica.

Erica (29:19):

Yeah, it was so great to be here. Thank you so much.

Kim (29:23):

And you could find Erica's book at Erica Keswin, K-E-S-W-I-N, on her website. It is called The Retention Revolution. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to exit the grind and enter success on your own terms. This is the exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Don't forget to grab my free download, how to Grow Your Business with Amazing video at kimrittberg.com and linked out in the show notes. I love to hear your feedback. Make sure to submit to me what you learned from the show and how you are crushing it on your own terms. Connect with me on Instagram or LinkedIn at Kim Rittberg, R-I-T-T-B-E-R-G. And this show is edited by Jillian Grover and produced by Henry Street Media. I'm your host and Executive Producer, Kim Rittberg.

Kim RittbergNovember 15, 2023Comment