Ep.77/ How A Year in an RV Changed her Career Path: Ellen Brown of BP2 Health

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Today we have Ellen Brown, a partner at BP2 Health and co-host of the Reverse Mullet Healthcare Podcast. Ellen shares her insights on creating content that resonates in the healthcare industry, how to be authentic in marketing content, especially in an industry like healthcare, and, most importantly, how that can truly crack open new relationships and new business.. Ellen has a great personal story that involves spending a year in an RV, starting a business, and overall, she has a great perspective on work and life.

With over 30 years of healthcare experience, Ellen, along with her two partners, founded BP2Health, a successful advisory practice that works with hospitals and health systems, health insurers, and providers to solve some of the healthcare industry's most pressing problems. She's a self-professed data geek and mountain adventure badass who is working to create real change in the healthcare industry, but makes a point to have fun with clients along the way. She also co-hosts the Reverse Mullet Healthcare Podcast, which is committed to help drive change in healthcare with the reverse mullet concept, a little party in the front and business in the back.

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Want to know how to grow your business while still being true to yourself?

She's a self-professed data geek and mountain adventure badass who is working to create real change in the healthcare industry, but makes a point to have fun with clients along the way.

She also co-hosts the Reverse Mullet Healthcare Podcast, which is committed to help drive change in healthcare with the reverse mullet concept, a little party in the front and business in the back.

In this episode you will learn:

How content marketing is a game changer for your business.
Why being authentic with your marketing is what grows your business.
The power of taking risks and having a support system.

Quotes from our guest:

“We are party in the front and business in the back unlike the regular mullet which is business in the front and party in the back.”
“I'm at a point in my life now where I'm trying to just give myself grace like hey let's just look at how we're allocating time. So when somebody says well could you do this? It's like ‘oh you don't have time for that’. I'm like you know I might want to make time for that. I might want to reallocate my time to your point in a way that's a little bit more balanced for my life now. There's a season for everything.”
“I think when you take yourself out of what your comfort zone, when you take the leap you push a little harder.”

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Listen to The Reverse Mullet Healthcare Podcast

Kim (00:02):

Today's guest spent a year in an RV that changed her life. Ellen Brown, partner at BP2 Health and Co-host of the Reverse Mullet Healthcare podcast. Yes, that's its name and I'll explain. She joins me to talk about how she's learned to create content that works in a more buttoned up industry like healthcare. How to know when you're working too much for the right amount and how we make decisions in our career that impact our families. Plus we talk about our passion for changing the world.

(00:29):

Welcome to the Exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Do you work for yourself and want to supercharge your business while still having fun? Well, this is your go-to podcast part MBA Part Cheer Squad. Every week I'll be joined by top business owners who share the secrets to their success. After I found myself working during childbirth true story, I quit my executive media job to bet on myself fighting the fear and imposter syndrome to eventually earn six awards, an in-demand speaking career and features in Fast Company and Business Insider. Now I'm here to celebrate all you rock stars betting on yourself, and I want to help you win Tune in every Wednesday to hear from remarkable founders and don't miss our Solo Friday episodes, a treasure trove of video and podcasting mini masterclasses with me. Exit the Grind, enter success on your own terms. Don't forget to subscribe today and grab my free video tips at my website, kimrittberg.com.

(01:31):

I am excited for you to hear from Ellen Brown. She's a partner at BP2 Health and she has a great personal story that involves spending a year in an RV starting a business, and overall she has a great perspective on work and life. I met Ellen when I was a keynote speaker at an event and we hit it off. We stayed in touch and I've worked with her several times. I helped her and her healthcare partners launch their awesome podcast and we did a wonderful brand shoot day together in New York City and she also took my video bootcamp class. And I love hearing from Ellen directly about how she's come to understand how to be authentic in marketing content, especially in an industry like healthcare, but still how to make it interesting and relevant. Most importantly, how that can truly crack open new relationships and new business.

(02:14):

A little bit more about Ellen. With over 30 years of healthcare experience, Ellen, along with her two partners founded BP2 Health, a successful advisory practice that works with hospitals and health systems, health insurers and providers who solve some of the healthcare industry's most pressing problems. She's a self-professed data geek and mountain adventure badass who is working to create real change in the healthcare industry, but makes a point to have fun with clients along the way. She also co-hosts the Reverse Mullet Healthcare podcast, which is committed to help drive change in healthcare with the reverse mullet concept, a little party in the front and business in the back, the reverse mullet of healthcare. Alright, I'm really, really excited to have Ellen Brown here. Why am I excited to have Ellen Brown here? So I met Ellen when I was the keynote speaker at the Women's Real Estate Investment Summit and the night before I spoke, Ellen sat at the VIP table with me and if there ever was a person who's AVIP, it is Ellen and she and I hit it off immediately.

(03:11):

She's super dynamic, truly a Jane of many trades. I can't even, she's a very, very dynamic, talented, smart woman who's just really hardworking and goes for everything she wants and I'm super excited to bring her on exit interview since I met her, which was less than a year ago, I've worked with Ellen several times. She took my video bootcamp, I'm working with her and her team. Spoiler alert, we just launched a podcast and she has a podcast called The Reverse Mullet Healthcare Podcast by BP2 Health. I'm going to bring her in, but I just wanted to give a little context on how I met Ellen. And so we've known each other for a year and worked together several times and she flew to New York with her team where we created a lot of beautiful video content about their company and I'm going to have her start talking, so I stopped talking, but I wanted to give that context to people so they know how we met. Ellen, thank you for joining.

Ellen (03:59):

Thanks Kim. Thanks for having me on the show.

Kim (04:01):

First I'm just going to have you introduce yourself to the listeners.

Ellen (04:05):

Sure. So I am Ellen Brown and the reason that I'm here is in part to talk about our consulting firm, BP2 Health, which Kim has been brilliant. You have been brilliant at helping us really change the landscape of it from the old school typical consulting firm to having really a much better representation of who we are. We work on real change. We work with multi-billion dollar health systems and health plans and provider organizations to help them create real change. We help them create solutions and implement those solutions and typical consulting jargon.

Kim (04:45):

And I would love to, you had alluded to this and we've been working together, I would love from your perspective, what was the biggest challenge for you in marketing your business and how has that changed over the past year?

Ellen (04:57):

We've never had to market. That's been the crazy thing about our business is it's always been complete word of mouth. It's always been complete referral, which is great except we want to touch more people. We want to know more people. Part of it is we want to make a difference in healthcare and I'm at a point in my career where I want to be doing exciting real change. I am not going to turn down working on the periphery because I've been doing that forever. And to some extent healthcare is just on the periphery. But I would love in this last part of my career, call it the next 10 years to work on something that I can look back on and say, wow, that really made a difference in the industry. And I feel like only way that's going to happen for us to be out there and be with a different audience and really have a different voice and meet people that we wouldn't normally meet. Healthcare is a funky place. It's a really small industry, but yet it's really big. By having the podcast now by doing a lot of work in content development with you, I feel like now all of a sudden our voice is getting out there to a whole new audience, which is exactly what we wanted.

Kim (06:03):

And I love, basically Ellen will just, I'll have a meeting and she'll just be like, oh, I just connected with the head of this huge organization through LinkedIn because of our work together. And I'm like, that's so amazing. I just love that. For me, what's really fun about working for myself is getting to work with clients where I truly feel like I'm helping, but I also am very invested. It's not like, oh, this random company I'm working with, I'm like, these are the coolest healthcare consultants you'll ever meet. You all have so much heart and so much passion. And to me that's really fun for me as a small business owner is to get to do that. So I guess I'd ask you also, what do you think is the two biggest game changers from us working together and you sort of having a different lens, you and your company about content and how content and content marketing can impact your company?

Ellen (06:44):

It just got me off the shelf I would say, and it also reminded me that this is really a lot of fun and meeting new people is a lot of fun. I think that's what we were struggling with. To be quite frank with you, I didn't want to push another webinar and no offense to webinars, I didn't want to push another webinar out. I didn't want to push another white paper out. We all have so much going on, and so by meeting you and you giving us a fresh lens, I don't think we're going to be creating a TikTok channel, although with my two partners, I think it would be a really great channel because they're so much fun. But nonetheless, it reminded me that hey, we can take the typical platforms that people are using in a very traditional industry and use it in a way that still comes across as very legitimate and real thought leadership and really invested. And so we invested in ourselves to put the proper voice and it feels so authentic because it's us. It's talking about things that we would talk about on a conference call, the three of us, but now we have a forum to be able to push some of that thought leadership out and make it fun.

Kim (07:52):

And what have been some of the wins? I love when you share your wins with me, I'm amazed

Ellen (07:56):

It's just really engaging with new people. So what I'm finding is I'm putting myself out there in a very authentic manner. So no longer am I trying to, and I think a lot of people do this on LinkedIn, kind of stay careful really well, I don't want to say what I'm really thinking because that might get me into trouble. People might see me differently. And I'm just at a point now where, no, I'm not being negative Nelly just to be negative Nelly, right? But I'm putting real thought. So somebody, and I think when you talk about wins, where I really enjoy it is I'm taking the time to connect with people that are taking the time to be authentic themselves. You can read a connect a LinkedIn post and right away did they write it? Maybe they hired a content expert, fine, but it's a real thoughtful post. It's not just congratulations or we just hired some new people, or look, we were at this conference, Hey, I read this and it made me think X, Y, and Z. When that resonates with me, that's when I respond. And it's amazing the kind of connections that you can find through LinkedIn, a platform that again, people sort of see as like, Ugh, I don't know. It's very jury's out.

Kim (09:12):

And I love, I remember one time when you had been like, I'm now in a conversation on LinkedIn with the head of this organization specifically from LinkedIn commenting. And to me that's a huge win because that's a meeting or a phone call or an email that does not get returned.

Ellen (09:30):

No, I totally agree. And I think, yes, that to me has been the epiphany or the light bulb moment with LinkedIn is there are real thought leaders taking the time to put content onto LinkedIn and to create a conversation in the industry. And they're not just the guy who's trying to get promoted or get a new job or the consultant like me that wants to have a broader audience. These are CEOs of major health systems that are making comments like this. One particular comment was actually talking about, so one of my frustrations with healthcare is that we just focus on the fact that it's broken and it's so expensive and blah, blah, blah. And yet we don't talk about being well and being healthy. And it's like this disconnected universe. And unfortunately a lot of the CEOs that are leading health systems, they have to stay focused on margin, which means they have to stay focused on sick people.

(10:23):

And this particular CEO is a major health system that's actually seen as a pretty traditional health system. And he posted actually about spiritual wellbeing. And his statement was, we have to look at this as part of healthcare and how do you find your wellbeing spiritually or otherwise? And I mean, I got to tell you, I think there's now 150 comments, but he took the time to actually respond back directly and then we've started to correspond offline with that connection again. I took the time to really, and I feel very passionate about how do we work that kind of conversation into the re-engineering of a very broken system.

Kim (11:04):

And I love that because one of the things people look at me, they're like, oh, well you like video, you think it's fun. That's been your career. But what I really think is important is this concept. And I've seen the light bulbs go off for several of my clients, Ellen and her team being one of them. And it's this, the offline and the online world are interconnected. So I think that when people take a class with me or they work with me, one-on-one, the first thing I say is you're not going to make a video and then there's a client the next day. It's not like that. But your online people can become real world clients and then your real world people, connectors, referers, can become online cheerleaders, referers, engagers, and it becomes this interconnected world. So I think oftentimes people are like, I'm just going to go on LinkedIn and post a random video.

(11:49):

I'm like, no, you're going to go on LinkedIn and make a piece of that feels true to you, that is in your own voice. They're actually excited to share what would you put in your blog and what would you put in your newsletter? That's your LinkedIn piece. And I think that you've been so great about it because what I love and I've seen from you and I've seen even myself, it was an adjustment to go from being like, I work for myself. What am I going to post about? And then it's like post about what you like to talk about. What do you like to talk about? We all have this job. We could all have a million other jobs, we could be in a different industry, we could have a completely parallel career path, but we're choosing this one, we enjoy it. So take that start there.

(12:25):

What are you passionate about? And I love to Ellen's point, Ellen and her colleagues are literally just real people. Great personalities, just humans, sincere humans. They're not buttoned up automatons from a catalog of healthcare consultants. And I think it was really important from our beginning of the work together, I got on a Zoom and I'm like, you guys need to turn on the video and just be yourselves. Because when you talk about the things you're passionate about and you're just being yourselves, it's very endearing. And also to people's points of tap into what is really, you had said this earlier, Ellen, about being authentic and I think you've harnessed your voice really well on LinkedIn is tapping into what is truly you, which for some people is more work. And I think for others you do know that once you start to show up with the voice that is you, whether that's funny or serious or sincere or wise or whatever, goofy, putting more of that in the real world, that's where you're going to win. And I think that's what you're seeing, Ellen, is you're showing up as passionate, but as you,

Ellen (13:24):

Well, and you've been really helpful and I think we've pushed too, we've pushed you to say, Hey, this isn't an Instagram, right? It's hard for you. I look at what you do and what a challenge, right? Because in a way you're taking an ocean and you're boiling it a certain way, but you have to take a whole ocean of species. So I look at all these different industries that you're serving and you have to try and help them figure it out and you don't have enough time to re-engineer. We are consultants that like to solve very specific customized solutions. And like you said, we are very, this is who we are to our core. We develop relationships with our clients that last for years. They are friends, they still text us. I genuinely care about the people that we work with. And quite frankly, I'm at a point where that's the kind of person I want to work with is somebody who wants to have fun and have a relationship.

(14:18):

I mean, sure we're going to get to brass tacks, but at least have a relationship. And I think what's been really interesting for me to see you is that you have to work with one industry where Instagram is totally the thing or TikTok is totally the thing and you're doing a video bootcamp and here I am going, Kim, that doesn't work for me. Sure, I could get on Insta, but no one's going to watch it. Right? And I think it's been really great to have you. I feel like you're willing to push yourself and maybe you're not pushing yourself, but you're willing to go that mile to say, Hey, I recognize you all are in a very buttoned down industry full of people who are catalog consultants and you know that's how we are. And that's fine. There are times when I will tell a client, you need to go hire that consulting firm because for this engagement, you need that for your board or you need that for that solution. We are here to do this.

Kim (15:06):

And I think it's funny because how we show up, and I like to remind people of this is how we show up today doesn't always even show our vast experience. The first 10 years of my career was in news and some of it was pop culture, but some of it was general interest hard news. And I think that comes into play in LinkedIn where I've worked with doctors and CEOs and politicians, they're not going to go on Instagram and do a lip-syncing dance and they shouldn't do that and they shouldn't do that. And so I think it's like saying, okay, what is interesting to your audience? What will connect with them? And then pushing that a little further and how do we inject personality and authenticity? Not in a silly way, not in a goofy way, but in an on-brand way that connects to your ideal audience.

(15:46):

And I think that's agnostic of platform. It's more who am I? I'm always that person. How are we this company and who am I on this platform? So I think the idea is distilling down the essential Ellen Brown and BP2 Health and how does that show up on LinkedIn as compared to a real estate agent on Instagram. Or I had a client who runs a high-end gift packaging company, and that's Instagram, very visual, very product-based. So all of these people, and I push real estate agents who are almost exclusively on Instagram. I'm like, you should be thinking about LinkedIn. Your developers are there. I think not everybody, your clients are there. If you're a high-end realtor, your clients are on LinkedIn.

Ellen (16:26):

Absolutely.

Kim (16:26):

I think it's pushing people to have more of

Ellen (16:31):

Necessarily

Kim (16:32):

An awareness that it's not necessarily the platform is just the platform, but you're always the same person. And what you're making for that platform changes, but you always exist as you. And I think showing up more authentically and understanding your audience really well is step one. But anyway, I love Ellen's kicking butt, and so her podcast is called The Reverse Mullet Healthcare Podcast by BP2 Health. I'm going to, oh my god, this is obviously going to be the social media moment. Oh my god, this is the greatest. So Ellen, just put on a mullet. So I'm now going to have to ask Ellen something obviously to edit our social media moment down. So Ellen has been just crushing it in content marketing. Ellen just launched a podcast with me. I helped her launch this podcast. It's called The Reverse Mullet Healthcare Podcast by BP2 Health Ellen. Why is it called the Reverse Mullet Healthcare Podcast?

Ellen (17:21):

Because we are party in the front and business in the back, unlike the regular mullet, which is business in the front and party in the back. So got to have fun.

Kim (17:35):

You

Ellen (17:36):

Have to take it off. I have to take it off because you can't.

Kim (17:39):

I cannot handle this. And how does your mullet ness show up when people work with you? What does the mullet ness bring when you have clients that come to BP2 Health?

Ellen (17:48):

Well, we make it enjoyable. It doesn't have to be painful. We're all people and we all have lives and you should be able to laugh. So I mean, when we're on calls with clients and CEOs and boards, and I mean we know the time and the place to do things, but we make it enjoyable. We develop relationships, we're transparent. We talk about, on a more serious note, not just joking aside, I mean I have two other partners and we have three different opinions. And so we're really candid with our clients and we'll say, Hey, the three of us may not agree on something and we're all going to share our perspectives and we're going to share why we think this way or we think that way. And I think that's really valuable to people. So I'll take it off. I

Kim (18:27):

Know I'm concentrate. And then Ellen, I would love to hear about your pivots. So we talk a lot in the exit interview about pivots. Talk to me about the RV road trip. Talk to me about pivots in your career.

Ellen (18:40):

So I've had two, I'll say I think I have had two really big pivots. So the first pivot was I had spent 10 years crushing it at a multi-billion dollar health plan, right? Health insurance company. And I thought I had made it. I was the youngest director VP ever in a very bureaucratic organization. I beat out people that had been there for 30 years to get these jobs. I had been handpicked by the executive vice presidents and the CEO. I was working directly for the board. And I came home one night, my husband was a successful attorney at a big law firm. He was litigating huge cases and he just looked over at me and he is like, so this is life. And I said, yeah, and I grew up in a really middle income at best. So to me I was like, this is what you do.

(19:28):

You work a million hours and you try and make money and you have a nice house and you have this life and you have kids. We made it right and I thought we had made it right. And he looks over at me and he is like, because if this is it, it stinks. And he goes, I love you. And not the marriage, but everything else stinks. And I was so taken aback. I was like, what? I don't even understand what to do with that. And so then it all fell into place. I randomly won tickets on, I was called into a radio show and won random tickets to an RV show. My parents came to visit, we went to this RV show. My husband and I walked in an rv and he is like, I could live in here. I'm like, what? You could live in here.

(20:07):

He is like, I could totally live in one of these. And so it became this joke and then we then turned it into an idea and then a plan. And five years later we left in. It actually was two years later, we left in an RV with a bunch of money saved up. We had sold our house, bought a house that we could live in if we wanted to be teachers in case that's what we decided we wanted to do. And then we just took a year and a half to travel around the country and make sure that what we were doing is what we should be doing.

Kim (20:32):

How did that year and a half in an RV clarify things for you?

Ellen (20:37):

Well, the irony is that I had an opportunity. So I'm all into wellness too. This is my thing, but I had this dream opportunity when we fell in love with the mountains, we settled in the mountains, we decided not to live with regret. So we removed. And that was the biggest thing, making the decision to walk away from complete success. I think a lot of people do it right out of college. Great. I mean, I walked away from a six figure stay bonus to go on this trip. People were like, what are you doing? And I drove up in a Ford, this massive Ford heavy duty diesel truck that I could, and I'm little, I'm only five two, I almost needed a step stool to get into it. And my husband's not much bigger. And here I am. I'm like, now I'm leaving, man, I'm done.

(21:21):

And I just, that trip it taught us to realize we could do whatever we wanted. Life was what we wanted to make it. And so the funny part was I got this dream job to help this woman open this wellness center and she's like, oh, you could bring the baby. I was pregnant. She's like, you could bring your baby and the baby bureau every day. I said, this revant ized vision, I was going to be working with acupunctures designing these group because we were in Breckenridge. So they, we'd have these retreats and I would be like the Zen mom teaching yoga. And I ended up, I was the janitor and the secretary, and I had to come to the realization that I had a massive ego. And it was so hard because I thought this one was this down to earth really cool. And here I am, I have to do what I have to do what this is.

(22:09):

So I mean, I've done stuff like that for ACEO, but this. And so what was really funny is it took me all of about a hot second and a baby. And I was similar to you actually. It's very funny. I didn't really think about this. My daughter was maybe a month old and I called the woman that ultimately she owned the organization that I left, the firm that Dave and I were at. She helped create it, and we were the two first employees there. And I called her and I said, okay, you've had me do some consulting for you. What does it look like if I do this full-time for you? And that was the rest was history. And Dave and I were right there. Dave was already there, and I became his right hand man. And then we helped build that company until she sold it to vc.

Kim (22:54):

And what was the original industry you were in that you left after 10 years? What was

Ellen (22:57):

That? It was healthcare. It was healthcare. That was healthcare. I didn't leave it. I didn't leave it, so I loved it too much. And then the second pivot was we had been at that firm and the original founder, she was the primary owner. We had a little Dave and I had little stakes in it, little ownership stakes, and she just was done. She was like, I'm ready to be done. And so she ultimately picked a VC fund to acquire us and I went all in. I was like, I am all in. We are going to do this second bite at the apple. This is going to be it. And what I realized was exactly, we were talking about the authenticity and the importance of relationships for Dave and Justin and I in a consulting organization is completely in opposition to VC revenue expectations. And so we were all of a sudden we ourselves being pushed into selling business we had no business doing and just really jeopardizing relationships that were real to me, not just business. I mean these were personal relationships. And so we again walked away from extremely lucrative, settled, whatever you want to call it, right? Established jobs. All three of us walked away and then we had NDAs and things like that. But then once the non-competes and stuff, we started our own firm and that was seven years ago.

Kim (24:17):

So I have a question because you had mentioned earlier you grew up sort of middle class, middle income, but I feel like you have this great attitude of bet on yourself. You only live once. How do those play together?

Ellen (24:30):

I was really lucky. I don't have a closet of childhood trauma. So my parents just for whatever reason, they always were like, you could do whatever you want. You want to be the president. My dad was a shoe repairman. He had a shoe shop in a very small town in central Florida, and my mom was in education. She ended up getting her doctorate, so she kind of showed me that girl power, you could do it. But my dad was like, everybody came in and talked to him all the time. He was that guy and they just both were like, you can accomplish anything you put your mind to, and that's all I needed to hear. And they were just my biggest champions of, you can do it. I also really believe that everything happens for a reason. I'm trying to teach my daughter who's in college that now where she bombed an exam and I said, you know what?

(25:15):

I ended up getting AD in chemistry. I almost lost my full ride scholarship. I came home that summer. I wanted to be a doctor. And my mom was like, well, you love business. You love all this business elective. And I was like, oh no, I can't go into business. It was like the market was horrible. If you were in business, you ended up being an assistant. And I'm like, I can't do that. And shocked me into taking accounting that summer. She's like, this is sort of the chemistry of business. And I loved it. I really liked it. I was like, I'm a total gee. I'm a total numbers person. And I ultimately switched my major and I did finance an econ then at least I felt legit. I was like, okay, well maybe I have a shot at getting a job, not as an assistant, but chem.

(25:53):

If I hadn't gotten that d, I would've tried to go to med school. And ultimately I'm in medicine. I'm just on the business side and I am so grateful for that. And I feel like every single thing that's happened to me professionally and personally, it doesn't feel good a lot of times when it happens. But you have to stand there and say, you know what? This is happening for a reason. I don't care if you believe in karma or what your spirituality is, whatever. There's still something more. We are cellular beings. There is energy involved here. And I just feel like that's what life is about. I met you, I met randomly in a conference for an industry that I'm not even in because I was pushing myself to learn more. It's when you push yourself that you all of a sudden you're like, wait, okay, I met Kim. Kim could help me with this, right? And so there you go.

Kim (26:41):

I remember at that email and I was like, I can't help Ellen. I like Ellen. I am going to help Ellen and these two men who are the best, coolest, most passionate, non boring healthcare people I've ever met. And I was really, really excited to work with you guys. I still am. And it's so fun. It's been really, really fun. It's interesting. I feel like you and I have that similar thing. So I grew up middle class, upper middle class, whatever, but there wasn't always money for everything forever. Definitely as soon as I went to college and was done with college, I had to pay off loans. I had to pay for my apartment. There wasn't that sort of fallback, but I still also, I took risks. I always though would work so hard that I always knew I wouldn't ever be really in a bad place because I would have two jobs and whatever I needed to do, but I did always take risks. So I think it's interesting. So

Ellen (27:30):

You have, but I'm really curious to know this from you because you're significantly younger and I feel like when I was your age, I really crushed it too hard and I definitely right. And so thank God I have my husband because he does keep me in check. And do you have that? Do you have somebody, do you have a conscience in the back going, Kim, Kim,

Kim (27:53):

My husband.

Ellen (27:53):

Okay, good. Thank God. Because people like us, we have to have that Without that we are in such deep trouble. I mean, yeah, good. I feel better because I worry about you. I'm like, I hope Kim doesn't just end up going off of a ledge, out of just Sure. Willpower and drive and success. And

Kim (28:13):

Thank you for saying that. I do think to your point earlier, one of the things, and I was just talking this conversation with another woman I know, I think it's being aware that certain things about the overwork culture in America is societal and some of it is ourselves and understanding which part of it is which is really important. So I've had a great year this year. I've grown my business a lot, but I'm doing things that are hard but are going well. I was so terrified to really speak on big stages, even though I wanted it, even though I was ready for it, even though I was excited about it, I fully thought I was going to throw up. And this year has been amazing, but I also have to gut check myself and say, what's enough? Look at the spreadsheet. Where do I feel good and where is it?

(29:01):

Just like capitalism tells me exponential, exponential and really saying, I chose this. I left a good like you a lucrative, glamorous media career, ego in it, great business card. I was at Netflix and US Weekly, and I was like, no one's ever going to invite me to something fun again. And there was some ego involved and there was some identity involved. And stepping back and saying, okay, digital media in general is volatile. I love content, I love media, I love marketing. To me, that's really fun, but what's a better way to do this where I feel like I'm going to have some energy and some brain power and some time to give to my children and my, a little bit to my husband.

Ellen (29:42):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You hear all these people talk about you have to manage your schedule better. You have to have to-do lists. You have to make more efficient use of your time. And I just have gotten to a point where I've given myself grace to say, you know what? It's more, I don't look anymore at it and say, well, do you have time for this? I never say that anymore. Now I say, how am I allocating my time? Right? Totally. How am I allocating my time? Totally. So I've realized lately, 15 minutes, I used to allow, I have to be scheduled so tight that if I run to an errand and I'd be like, okay, I only have four minutes. I mean, it wasn't like it was written down, but I knew in my mind I could just go in and grab it and go.

(30:26):

And if there's a wait, I'm going to have to leave. Well, guess what? I'm not talking to the guy behind the counter. My energy is all stressed and anxious and that's not doing any good for my body either and all that. And so I don't know. I'm at a point in my life now where I'm trying to just give myself grace. Hey, let's just look at how we're allocating time. So when somebody says, well, could you do this? It's like, oh, you don't have time for that. I'm like, I might want to make time for that. I might want to reallocate my time to your point of, in a way that's a little bit more balanced for my life Now there's a season for everything. And that's why my partners and I love working together is we have very specific parameters around what we want to accomplish and we actually don't want to go off to, we've done the really big stuff and we're like, you know what? If it's the right fit, great, but we're not chasing that anymore because we are all about our families and our lives and us as people and our work, and that's part of who we are. It's like, I don't want any more for one room. Somebody use an analogy of you have a house and you have have all these different rooms in your house, and it's like have a balance of rooms.

Kim (31:35):

Yes. I like that. I'm taking a note on your takeaway. I was like, Ellen's takeaway right here is very poignant, but I agree. I think that it's about, I am aware. I think some of it's self-awareness and I'm, I think you, I've probably been called intense a word that I do not and do not see as a compliment until when I see my qualities in my children and I'll affix in my brain an adjective about them, and I don't mean it as an insult, and it makes me accept myself more. Oh, that's

Ellen (32:05):

Good. That's a good way. Look at

Kim (32:06):

It using intensity when someone's like, oh, you're intense. I see it as an insult. I'm like, I think you're trying to insult me, but I'm not going to take it personally. But then I see that quality in my children and I don't see it as a negative thing. I'm like, yeah, he wants to make that happen. She feels so deeply and I see that, and I'm like, oh, intensity is not a bad thing. It's just harnessing in the right way. So anyway, that's to say I have to be self-aware of the drive and turning it down and turning it appropriately down. And I think that I've gotten better at that. My husband's a great gut check on these things, and he'll help me allocate the time and the energy to the right things. I basically try not to do any meetings on Fridays. I'm now trying to get my kids at school at least two afternoons a week and be with them and phone off, go somewhere with them and not in the house where your computer's nearby, but go somewhere with them. And so I think that we all are trying for different things, but I am aware of that. Okay. Now I want to ask you, I feel like you've had so many interesting things you've done in your life. What is some advice you would give for someone else who's betting on themself working for themself?

Ellen (33:15):

Do hard things. Don't be scared of failure. Just do hard things and follow what comes. But go after the stuff that you really want to do and that really matters to you. And don't think about what anybody else is going to think of you. Just stay true to what you want to do. Work hard, go after it and it comes to fruition and do it. What time? I had ACEO that I worked for. I'll never forget, we were in a limo, so I was partly a chief of staff, so I ran all the strategic planning for this multi-billion dollar company, but part of my job was to do all of the board the materials for the board. And so anytime we had a board meeting, I was just with him one time. He had me fly to California and back first class, first time I'd ever been in first class, just to work on the board deck.

(34:00):

And then I was holed up in a hotel, we're working on it, we were in a limo. He was going to New York for a dinner with investment bankers, was trying to, we were selling the company this multi-billion dollar healthcare company, big deal, very private. I was there. He was such a piece of work. He gets out of the car. He was my opposite. I'm this little person. He was this six foot two commandeering man, and he's this big voice and he just turns and he wasn't real warm and fuzzy at all. He gets out of the car, he looks back at me, Kim, and he goes, are you coming?

(34:34):

I'm like, excuse me. Literally turns to me and he goes, are you coming? He's at the train station, doesn't say, do you want to come with me to the rainbow room tonight to have dinner and drink multi-thousand dollar bottles of wine with the investment bankers and hear everything that you shouldn't hear, right? No, he doesn't do that. He just says, are you coming? I had to on the fly decide, right? And I went, and you know what you asked me about the RV trip? That to me was once I was doing things like that in life, then taking RV trip, it was like, Hey man, my husband needs to figure out if this is the life that we want. And we created a completely different life for ourselves by walking away from what people think as sort of the life. And we created a life that was amazing and still is. And we're crazy though. We do so many crazy things.

Kim (35:25):

Well, it's interesting what you were just saying about the RV trip. And so after college, a year after college, I traveled for a year and by myself, one backpack. I visited, I don't know, 10 countries, anything. Anyway, but I left and I had a phone that was empty. I didn't have any friends. I moved to Sydney, Australia by myself, and I backpacked in Fiji and New Zealand. Then after Australia, I went to Southeast Asia for two and a half months and a little bit of Europe. I studied abroad in Spain, so that wasn't my first time in Europe, but traveling for a year. And it's interesting. I actually wouldn't put that under hard things. I was really excited for it. So to me, that wasn't scary.

Ellen (36:02):

Oh, the RV trip wasn't hard. It was just walking away from, from this successful career. Once we were in the rv, I had the best day ever. We were sitting by a river and I was literally picking beans. You know how you have to tear the ends off the beans? And I just had this cathartic moment where I was like, I have nothing to do, and nowhere to be except snapping these beans and it is the best thing ever. So you went on this backpacking trip, so it was a year you were

Kim (36:30):

Gone? Yeah, yeah. I traveled for a year. By

Ellen (36:33):

Yourself?

Kim (36:33):

By myself, yes.

Ellen (36:35):

Wow. And what did you learn from that?

Kim (36:37):

Well, so one thing that I think is interesting, someone was like, oh, that's so brave of you. I'm like, actually, I wasn't being brave. I was really excited. So my dad was Israeli and he had been traveling the world after the army, and he met my mom in New York, and he meant to travel the world, and he never finished a strip. He met my mom, they settled down in New York, and that was it. My mom, she had lived in Mexico. She had student taught in Belgium. So there was stuff for my parents about travel that I knew that travel was a great thing, a wonderful thing. It wasn't the stigma. So for me, I was very excited about it. So I actually didn't feel they was brave. I think when I talk about bravery and I look at my children and I teach them things, I'm like, brave is when you're scared to do something and you do it anyway.

(37:21):

So I didn't feel, for me, it was bravery, but I felt like it got so much wanderlust out of me that it made this era of my life where, let's be honest, when you have little kids, you're basically tethered to your house. You cannot open your front door without ensuring another adult is inside. I couldn't have this part of my life without having that wanderlust experience for me. That would've been really hard. So I think that it allowed me to have this incredible once in a lifetime experience, which I loved. I met so many people from so many countries, I met people from everywhere, and it was incredible. Just the whole thing of seeing so many cultures, people who were native to those cultures, people who are backpacking like me, people lived who are from other places. It was just an amazing experience. And I also think I came back, I felt like one year had passed, but I had grown 10 years.

(38:11):

And I think having that experience has kind of given me this. I really feel very centered with my family. I still like to travel, but I don't need to travel as much. I did that. So we still do trips and stuff, but I do feel like I was able to get that out of myself. And I just think it just gives you, I'm a very non-judgmental, open-minded person, and I think that definitely helps evoke more empathy and more understanding, and it was just amazing. So I look back and I'm just like, that was awesome. I do just always think about, I feel like when you're working for yourself, I'm like, the scariest thing I ever did was leave a really successful career to work for myself. It was scary. That was for sure the scariest thing. Even though I had a good resume, I have a lot of skills. I have a good network. It's terrifying. And so I think that to me was really, really scary. Whereas to backpack for a year was like, yeah, let's do it.

Ellen (39:06):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pick when you take yourself out of what your comfort zone is, whatever that is, when you take the leap, you push a little harder. And I don't care if it's athletically, if it's personally, if it's professionally, but if you're consistently in as many aspects of your life putting yourself into those new zones, then it does. It makes it where you're just much more adaptable. You're much more open to things. You don't get as stressed. It's like, okay, once I walked away from that lucrative career just like you did, and I saw that everything was going to be okay, I'm not scared anymore. I mean, believe me, I still have imposter sentiment. I still get scared that this or that. We all have that. But I have a different lens now where it's like, oh, you know what? We were in Colorado and we moved back to Florida, and now we've talked about my husband wants to go to Singapore for a year. I don't think we will. But my son, he wants to go to boarding school for a year in Singapore. And we're like, okay, I'm not scared of that. My daughter spent six weeks, as you know, this summer in Mozambique by herself getting her dime master certification. You have to do the things that you think are going to be right, that stretch yourself, because that makes you, I think, a better person.

Kim (40:19):

And you're right, because your ceiling becomes your floor.

Ellen (40:23):

Absolutely.

Kim (40:24):

And that's how you do it. And if you don't do that, it's interesting. I look back in my twenties, there were definitely things that even though I was totally equipped and completely capable of fear and insecurity for sure held me back for a while and doing things that I knew I could do. But there's something in the back of our mind, and I think to your point, you have to start doing the work on saying, is this something I really want? And then just pushing yourself. You have to just push into those new zones. Otherwise you're sitting in a place that is so familiar and comfortable, and at some point will be filled with regret.

Ellen (40:53):

Well, but you have to do, the thing you said before though, is I find myself, and I think we have a lot in common this way, is I find I have to be really careful though about the ego thing. So it's really easy. I get caught up in something. I got really into half Ironman and racing and all of that, and I was winning stuff, and I felt so good, and I was shredded, and people would stop me and they'd be like, oh, are you an athlete? And when I was growing up, you were either an athletic kid or you were a smart kid. And I was a smart kid, so I didn't know I was athletic. So then all of a sudden, I had this epiphany after I had my daughter, which a lot of people do you, you all of a sudden you're really strong.

(41:29):

And I was really fast and I did all this stuff, but I was so out of right. So I did it, and then I just wanted to keep chasing it. It felt so good. And then my husband was like, time out. We have littles. I was in the stage that you're in now. And I loved being like that mom. And guess what? And I was fooling myself. I was like, oh, I still have it all. I have my career. I have my kids, I have my training rate. And then I was like, wait a minute. That's not right. And I think that's the hard part is we can get, so I've done the same in my career where I'm traveling all the time, and then I would say, well, I'm home three days a week, or I only travel every other week. Well, guess what? I have an 18 year old who still has some abandonment issues even though she had my husband and my parents. And it is hard to keep it reigned in, and you have to balance what you need to accomplish, but then stop and say, okay, I was so glad to hear you say, I've had to pause and just revisit. There's nothing wrong with going full out for a while, but then you do have to stop and say, is it enough?

Kim (42:37):

Yeah. I like also the honesty of I was doing this thing and traveling a lot and now maybe I would've done it differently. Looking back, would you have done that differently? You were saying your daughter now has abandonment issues. I dunno if you're kidding or not, but are there things you would do differently?

Ellen (42:51):

No, sadly, I think I got out in time. Why? Because I think, well, I don't know. I don't know. It's hard for me, Kim, because I don't think I would be where I am now and the flexibility of what we've created, I don't think BP2 would be what it is now. If I hadn't done what I did then, but it is hard. My kids definitely have scars from me being gone too young. There's stuff with my son that I know is partly because when he was really little, I was the one carrying around the pumping backpack through the, I'm the one in the airport with the breast milk that they're testing. And I'm like, no, I have to get to this meeting. And my kids remember times when they would be like, don't go mommy dad screaming. And I had to go. I feel like I was able, because of how hard I worked, I do feel like I was able to stop in time. For me, the teenage years I found to be extraordinarily important and way more interesting to me, way more intense. It's all, it's so right. You're so emotionally invested and it feels like such high stakes. And to be honest with you, I do think it's way more important than I'm here now and luckily Covid stopped it for me. That's the great thing, is I was still traveling a fair bit and then Covid hit, and now things are different, right? You know, that we wouldn't be doing stuff like this from abroad.

Kim (44:12):

Awesome. Before we wrap up, anything else you'd like to share with the audience?

Ellen (44:16):

No, that Kim's great and you should work with her and she could do great things for you.

Kim (44:23):

I love this guys. She's

Ellen (44:24):

A lot of fun. But I do want people to listen to our podcast too.

Kim (44:28):

So for our audience listening, I did not pay Ellen Brown for any of these testimonials, but I will use them forever and ever on my social media and my website. You have to listen to the Reverse Mullet Healthcare podcast, whether you work in healthcare or not. Whether if you have friends or colleagues who work in healthcare, definitely send it to them. Or if you're just interested in understanding how our healthcare system works, you've probably read articles about why it costs so much and how we're doing it all wrong. Well, they have ideas on how we could do it better, and it's really truly fun. They have great personalities and a great rapport. It is an awesome podcast. Ellen, anything else about the podcast you want to share?

Ellen (45:02):

No, I want to have you on our podcast now.

Kim (45:04):

Oh, yeah. See, I'm going to just promote it straight up.

Ellen (45:08):

The only thing I'll share about the podcast is as we've developed it, is I'm really excited because I do really see it as a platform talking about real change in healthcare, not the lip service change, but really talking about what could truly change the system. And I'm really excited where that can take us. And anybody who's listening that is interested in being part of that conversation, I want to have that kind of candid, transparent conversation with people.

Kim (45:34):

Awesome. Ellen, what an awesome chat. Everyone's going to love hearing from you. So guys, this is Ellen Brown, partner at BP2 Health, and thank you so much, Ellen.

Ellen (45:43):

Thank you, Kim.

Kim (45:44):

You can connect with ellen at bp2health.com and make sure to listen to their podcast, the Reverse Mullet Healthcare Podcast by BP2 Health. And you can get that wherever you get your podcast, and it'll be linked out in the show notes.

(46:01):

Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to exit the grind and enter success on your own terms. This is the exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Don't forget to grab my free download, how to Grow Your Business with Amazing video at kimrittberg.com and linked out in the show notes. I love to hear your feedback. Make sure to submit to me what you learned from the show and how your crushing it on your own terms. Connect with me on Instagram or LinkedIn at Kim Rittberg, R-I-T-T-B-E-R-G. And this show is edited by Jillian Grover and produced by Henry Street Media. I'm your host and executive producer, Kim Rittberg.

Kim RittbergNovember 29, 2023Comment