Ep.94/ The Worst Advice + Secrets of Being a Successful CEO: Sean Taylor of Smith + Howard
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Sean Taylor, the award-winning CEO of Smith + Howard in Atlanta and the host of “The Worst Advice I Ever Got” shares with us some awesome advice including the traits CEOs should have and naturally shares the worst advice he ever got. With 25 years of leadership experience, Sean emphasizes the value of building strong teams and balancing future business needs with present challenges. He stresses that there really isn't a work/life balance and he instead focuses on integrating work, personal, and spiritual aspects of life. Plus Sean reflects on his experience winning the 'Dumbass Award' as an intern.
In this episode you will learn:
The impact of first impressions and how they might not be as important as you think (2:58)
Balancing future business needs as a leader (9:27)
The key to being a successful CEO (12:46)
The difference between marketing yourself and bragging (14:15)
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Want to know how to be a successful CEO and lead your team with confidence?
Sean Taylor, the award-winning CEO of Smith & Howard in Atlanta shares with us some awesome advice including the traits CEOs should have and the worst advice he ever got. With 25 years of leadership experience, Sean emphasizes the value of building strong teams and balancing future business needs with present challenges. He stresses that there really isn't a work/life balance and he instead focuses on integrating work, personal, and spiritual aspects of life. Plus Sean reflects on his experience winning the 'Dumbass Award' as an intern.
In this episode you will learn:
The worst business advice Sean got
The impact of first impressions and how they might not be as important as you think (2:58)
Balancing future business needs as a leader (9:27)
Why building a strong team is important to being a successful CEO (12:46)
The difference between marketing yourself and bragging (14:15)
Quotes from our guest:
“I've made bad first impressions before and I've made good first impressions before, but ultimately I think if people want to invest in a relationship, they give plenty of opportunities for them to learn the real you through many exchanges.”
“I think as a CEO, you are tasked with the vision, mission, values, and purpose of that organization, and some people will not like you along the way.”
“I don't use the word balance. I use ‘integrate’ and that's because I just don't think I can truly balance everything a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit there. I've tried to make my work, my personal and my spiritual life all integrate.”
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SEAN’S LINKS:
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Kim (00:02):
We have Sean Taylor joining us. He's an award-winning CEO of a professional services firm based in Atlanta, and he shares with us some really awesome advice, including the traits CEOs should have and the worst advice he ever got.
(00:17):
Welcome to the exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Do you work for yourself and want to supercharge your business while still having fun? Well, this is your go-to podcast part MBA Part Cheer Squad. Every week I'll be joined by top business owners who share the secrets to their success. After I found myself working during childbirth true story, I quit my executive media job to bet on myself fighting the fear and imposter syndrome to eventually earn six awards, an in-demand speaking career and features in Fast Company and Business Insider. Now I'm here to celebrate all you rock stars betting on yourself, and I want to help you win. Tune in every Wednesday to hear from remarkable founders and don't miss our Solo Friday episodes, a treasure trove of video and podcasting mini masterclasses with me. Exit the grind, enter success on your own terms. Don't forget to subscribe today and grab my free video tips at my website, kimrittberg.com.
(01:19):
All right, Sean Taylor joins us. He is the CEO of Smith and Howard, a growing professional services firm headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia, and he drives a vision, innovation and growth of the firm. He was named a most admired CEO by the Atlanta Business Chronicle in 2020 and recognition of his leadership. Sean became CEO in January, 2019. After 25 years of leadership progression, he joined the firm as an intern and was ultimately named partner in charge of the assurance practice in 2010, a role he held for nearly a decade. He's a recognized and respected leader. He presents to many for-profit and nonprofit businesses and has served on and moderated numerous workshop and conference panels as well as presented to local and national audiences on various topics. He spent a career providing advisory, audit review, attest station and other assurance services for privately held businesses and nonprofit organizations. And he co-founded and led the firm's nonprofit practice and is still an active member of the nonprofit group.
(02:10):
He's an active participant and advocate of Smith and Howard for his mentoring program, personally mentoring many of the firm's professional and administrative staff through career progression and advancement. And he is also super active in his community, actively involved as a multi-year member of various committees at Dunwoody United Methodist Church, and he is a five-year member of the board of trustees for Wesleyan School, and he co-founded Food Stock in 2012, an annual food packaging event in Georgia where over a thousand community members pack up to 300,000 meals in one day for children in school feeding programs around the globe. Oh my gosh, you've done so many things and I love that you're giving back so much. Sean, thank you for joining us.
Sean (02:45):
Oh, thank you for having me, Kim. It's really a pleasure to join you today.
Kim (02:48):
Sean has a podcast out that's going to be available now called The Worst Advice I ever Got, and I'm going to start with asking you, Sean, what is the worst advice you ever got?
Sean (02:58):
Yeah, the worst advice I ever got was the importance of making a good first impression. And you might think, well, what's wrong with that advice? I think it was the way I took it, Kim, for me, I got it when I was in my teens and it was all about the pressure of getting into a good college and then once I was in college, getting a good job and if you make a bad first impression, then you lose all opportunities to do anything to fix it, and I just put a ton of pressure on myself and ultimately I kind of crashed and burned a little bit after college. From that I couldn't see clearly environment, other people's contributions to the whole conversation and the whole thing, and frankly, I just didn't handle it well. So I think I've made bad first impressions before and I've made good first impressions before, but ultimately I think if people want to invest in a relationship, they give plenty of opportunities for them to learn the real you through many exchanges.
Kim (03:59):
Do you feel like you took it as me, me show up and shine and be too much me centered? Or how did you, or were you too stressed about it and you weren't natural?
Sean (04:09):
I think it probably made me unnatural because I was always worried about making people like me. It was this whole thing about saying, look, this person has to walk away in effect already liking me even though we may have only spoken for 60 seconds, five minutes, 20 minutes, an hour, whatever it was, and it was just a ton of pressure for me to try to, I don't think I was authentic. I think what I was doing was I was learning quickly what the other person was interested in and saying, oh yeah, me too, or whatever the case might be, and I just didn't feel like I was being true to myself.
Kim (04:43):
It's funny, I think what I love about your show is I think the worst advice can also be the best advice. I came on and offered some advice and I think that what's nice about that is yes, you do only have one chance to make a first impression, but if we really think about it, think about how many friends of yours were not immediate friends. You kind of knew them for a while, but then you got to know them better or maybe you hired someone now that you had met years ago and thought whatever about them. And so I guess I like the idea of it's you have more chances to earn the respect.
Sean (05:13):
It's so funny, Kim, our first episode feels like you've already listened to it because I specifically go into some of that. I don't think I made a good first impression on my wife the first time we met, and I certainly know there's people here that are my partners in our business that my first impression of them, I was like, I'm not so sure about this person and I was wrong, and if we hadn't have given that individual a chance to look at what we would've missed out on. But you're right, I do think first impressions matter and we certainly, when we get an opportunity presented in front of us, we want to put our best foot forward. I just think there's a balance, right, Kim and I think that sometimes we lose the sight of the importance of that balance.
Kim (05:53):
You just said something I thought was really insightful, and I think I see this sometimes you see leaders that are totally this way and others that are not about wanting to please people. Is this something you think from uc? I know a lot of other CEOs, you were in a group with other CEOs for a long time, the idea of wanting to make people like you or being a people pleaser at the extreme end, the idea of wanting to make people like you, do you see that as something that a lot of CEOs have or should have?
Sean (06:18):
I don't think it's a common trait of CEOs to say, Hey, an important thing for me to do here is to make people like me. And I don't think it's necessarily a goal you should set up for. One of the goals is to make as many people like me as possible. I think as a CEO, you are tasked with the vision, mission, values, and purpose of that organization, and some people will not like you along the way. Let's just put it that way. There is no way that I can truthfully look at my co-owners, my investors and say, Hey, I'm driving us in the right direction, leading us along the way and along the way, everyone's going to love me. No, you can't do that. There's no way that it's possible. So I think you actually kind of have to throw that out. I will say this though, I will say that CEOs who don't take the time to invest in developing relationships and getting to know people that they encounter and really taking a moment to worry about their interests versus putting their own interests first are probably not going to be as successful as they could be.
(07:22):
At the end of the day, we sell air, we sell trust, it's a chemistry thing, and if you don't spend the time investing in others and developing those relationships ultimately then having those people like you, I don't think you're performing as well as you could.
Kim (07:37):
I was going to say that also about leadership is like it's not your job to be everyone's best friend, but it is your job to make it a good place to work, to be invested in their growth if they're not attrition and is a big deal and a real thing that if people don't feel like they're invested in or respected, they're not going to stay.
Sean (07:55):
No question about it. I mean, we spend a lot of time developing formal career paths and stages along the way and what that looks like for everybody that works for us daily, weekly, monthly, annually. That takes a lot of time and energy. And by investing that time and energy, I think they know that we're spending a good bit of time on them. I think they like us for that. The goal isn't for them to like me, the goal is for them to see clearly what they need to do to advance. And as they advance, I think a respect and appreciation and admiration for that contribution to their success comes out of it. But no, there are many times when I'm mentoring others and I tell them something that, Hey, you need to do this and I know you're not going to like it, and if you don't like it, then maybe this isn't for you and that's okay. But the goal isn't for them just to like me, it's to have them make the best decision for themselves.
Kim (08:52):
How many people are at your company?
Sean (08:53):
So we're about 250 people right now. We've grown a lot since 2020. January of 2020, we unveiled our vision, vision 2030, and at that time we were about 125 people. So we've more than doubled since January of 2020. Likely we'll be about 350 people by the end of 2024. So we're really on a real protracted growth path right now. Maintaining culture and doing some of the things that you do each and every day is becoming more and more important with this protracted growth. So we're becoming a large business.
Kim (09:27):
What are the biggest challenges for you as a leader?
Sean (09:30):
I think for me as a leader, it's balancing the needs of the business five years from now versus the needs of the business. Now. It's very easy, I'm going to count it by trade, so what do I like to do? Get into the details and figure out what's wrong, solve the puzzle, present a picture that says today, here's this issue, or here's this solution. I think that's maybe how I'm naturally wired and I have to be a little unnatural from my wiring to do the things that I need to do as CEO, which is to think about building us to what we need to be five years from now about adding resources that our people can't think about when they're in their urgent quadrant, right? Stuff that's got to get done today. And so the challenge for me is to maybe not do the thing I'm naturally built to do, but do some of those things that are important that require me to be very focused on that on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.
(10:26):
So I think it's finding that right blend. Now, I will say as I do more and more of that, I find myself enjoying it more than I thought, and I find myself being better at it than I thought. So it's a very interesting thing that's unveiling for me just in the last several years as I've been doing this job is I think I'm okay at it. I get good feedback that I'm doing a good job and I like it, so it's becoming easier, but I can fall into that trap of worrying about this detail or that detail versus let's not get lost in those details. Let's keep our eye focused on the end game.
Kim (11:00):
Yeah, I used to have a sticky note. The only things that are important this month are the two things on that sticky note. So everything else kind of works around it, but if it doesn't align with that, it's done. My sticky note strategy. We mentioned this earlier. You were in a CEO group. What were your biggest learnings from meeting with CEOs consistently?
Sean (11:16):
Well, the great part about that group is that we had a consistent group that we got to know deeply one another, been in it for two decades. And so I've gotten to know these CEOs very, very well. I know their families, I know their goals, I know their highs, their lows, and so when you know somebody on a personal level like that, it really helps. It's lonely at the top, so to speak, is what they always say. And so having that peer-to-peer relationship allows you to have people you can go to when you don't really have anybody else in your business that you can ask about this. But what I learned is that my issues are everybody else's issues. Sometimes you feel like you're encountering a problem and you're like, God, this is unbelievable. I cannot believe that I'm having to deal with this. We're having to deal with this well, so is Sam and so is Sue.
(12:00):
And so hearing their stories and how they dealt with it gives me in effect an advisory team without them being my official advisory team. And they also get to know me so well that when I come to them and I speak of something that maybe isn't going well, they can help dig by asking a few questions and say, that's not your real issue. This is your real issue, so let's talk about that. So it's been really beneficial to have that, and I totally recommend people having a round table or some peer group that they spend time with no matter where you are in your career. It just helps you be more effective, it helps you better understand the environment that you're working in and some of the real challenges, and it actually frankly helps you address issues faster than you otherwise might.
Kim (12:46):
What's a trait that successful CEOs have or should work to have?
Sean (12:52):
I think successful CEOs build strong teams, and if you are not thinking about building your team underneath, your ceiling is lower than what it could ultimately be. And success isn't necessarily a higher ceiling or more revenue or more profit or what have you, but I do think your ability to accomplish more is less to the extent that you are relying on individuals versus systems or a few people versus a team. And to be able to do that, you have to know how to delegate. You have to know how to empower people to make decisions at a certain level. There's the whole decision, tree roots, trunk limbs, leaves. CEOs need to rely on people to make decisions that could damage a leaf or damage a limb and not worry about that and get stuck in that or retain those decisions themselves. So you got to build teams, you got to empower those team leaders and you got to let them do what they're really good at. And then frankly, the other thing CEOs need to do is sell and market. If you can't sell and market that ceiling is pretty low as well.
Kim (14:04):
Yeah, I forgot what the percent is. Someone's like you've spent 30% of your time doing X and 70% of your time marketing it or whatever the percentage is, but you could have an amazing product, amazing services, and if no one knows about it, you're not going to thrive.
Sean (14:15):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And it's funny, for years I used to refer, and I refer to this in a way, this is probably 15 years ago, I used to say We're Smith and Howard we're the best kept secret in Atlanta. I thought that was a good thing. I was like, yeah, we're this jewel in the rough that nobody knows about, and I sit here and think about that today. And I think why is that something to be proud of? If you've got something, why would you cover it up or keep it in the dark? Let more people know about what you're doing well so that you can have more impact. So it's funny, I think maybe part of it back then was I wasn't as focused on marketing and selling and I wasn't as focused on the importance of it as I learned. I was like, okay, we need to get this story out better. That's one of the reasons we rebranded back in 2020, and that's one of the reasons why we cast this vision, and that's one of the reasons why we do what we do from a marketing perspective is that so more people can know our story.
Kim (15:14):
I laugh because on my website I say, don't be the world's best kept secret. So my background is marketing. And so for me, I've gotten, I like to say when I was younger, my mom would walk around with me when I was a teenager and she'd be like, have you met my daughter? She's president of student government. She's going to Penn. It's in the Ivy Leagues. And I would be really embarrassed. I would just be like, this is embarrassing. But now I realize running my own business, no one else could be tooting my own horn. So you have to show up and let people know about you, let people know how you can help them, let them know what you do. And so I think it's funny, that's what I help a lot of my clients with is figuring out how do you let people know who you are, why you're credible, why you're likable, why they should work with you, how you can help them in a way that's creative and authentic and relatable. And so that resonates because I'm like, no, no, no. Never be the world's best secret. Secret. Be the world's worst Kemp secret.
Sean (16:07):
You and I had a great conversation about this on our podcast, if I remember correctly, about the importance of bragging a little bit perhaps. And I've always had a natural challenge with that, Kim, because I think humility is a great trait, but I don't necessarily think humble businesses achieve all they can achieve. And so it's a fine balance when someone's saying to me, we need to do this. I'm always thinking, how is that going to be perceived? I don't want to come across as arrogant or braggadocious, but at the same time I want the story to be heard and I want people to understand that I really believe in the value that we're portraying out there. So I always find this conflict with a fine line. I'm less worried about it than I used to be. And I think to myself, if someone thinks I'm bragging again, that's their first impression of me maybe, and they don't know me well enough to know that I'm really not bragging. I'm just telling you about the value that we have here at the firm.
Kim (17:04):
And it's funny, I mean anyone who listens and anyone who follows me on social media knows that I'll always say like, oh, don't be afraid to brag. And I use the word brag, I kind of know it's a controversial word, but I also think, especially like me as a woman, it's definitely different for women because as much as I think humility is valued, generally women start from being like, well, I don't actually held a seminar the other night about teaching people how to pitch themselves. Not all about bragging just about telling people your elevator pitch. And I asked people to say, what is it that makes you feel uncomfortable about bragging when you're really just giving a data point about your life? And it was across the board, people were like, I don't want to seem obnoxious. I don't want to make someone else feel lower or less than.
(17:49):
But all of these things I think hits women even harder and that they might be underestimated. And so by not letting someone know what you're doing or bragging, you're holding yourself back. But I also think that humility piece is even more powerful in women's heads because you're really, like we talked about people pleasing earlier, the people pleasing Gene, I think is even not Jean. The people pleasing factor I think can be harder to push through or at least of my generation. So I think it is important to say these are things that I or our company have done, and these are also how they can help you, not just like, Ooh, I have these trophies in my back, but I can help your business because I think creatively and I know how to market you and I know how to publicize you and your brand to get more clients in a comfortable way. And so I love this piece about it. And speaking of the balance and humility versus self-advocacy, which is really just a nicer way to say brag.
Sean (18:42):
Yeah, well, I think you put some context there, right? There's context just to say it's always bragging if someone says, this doesn't give credence to the context, right? Well, I've never had a platform to share my story, so it's really not bragging, it's just getting the word out there. And I think that when we lose context or the basis or the vantage point that the other person is telling their story from, that's really not fair to that individual. You have to better understand that context. You're exactly right. Not everyone gets to tell the story from the same position or the same emotional bank account, if you will, that says, I've earned this, so therefore I get the platform to tell it. So we have to give people a break and say, I'm not sure that the person is just trying to be this way. I think they're just trying to get a message to me. I need to seek to understand them.
Kim (19:35):
Right, totally. So you had mentioned something about decisions because I would love to hear about as a CEO, obviously you make a lot of decisions. Do you have a specific process? You run things through? How do you make decisions?
Sean (19:45):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's the type of decision as to how I make them. So I try to determine if what I'm looking at is something that is going to be important to the core of the business that if wrong could greatly damage us, or if wrong, maybe not even be noticed. And for the things that are just maybe not even noticed, I'm very much a go with my gut. I have enough data to get a feeling for how this is and then I drive. I'm not a true analytic where I spend a great deal of time vetting. Well, that's great, but there's a 1.2% chance it could be wrong. So let me get more data to make sure it's a hundred percent right, Uhuh, I get a good enough feeling with it and I go with it. But to our business, what I tell people all the time is, if you're unsure of whether to do something or not do something, does it align with the values of the business?
(20:38):
So if it aligns with the values of the business decisions made for you, you do it. You don't look back and if it doesn't, you don't do it. You don't look back. If there's a gray area, then I think you seek advisors. Then I think you say, okay, this is important enough for me to ask some others for their input. But to me it depends upon the impact of whatever the issue is that I'm dealing with. If I think it's a leaf impact, I'm going to make a decision move forward and not look back. If it's a root impact, I'm probably going to collaborate with several of my cohorts and we're going to make a decision and we're going to revisit it and kind of follow up on it and make sure that we did indeed make the right decision.
Kim (21:15):
Sean, are you ready for rapid fire?
Sean (21:18):
Yeah, let's go.
Kim (21:19):
Okay. Well first before I move into rapid fire, okay, you have a son who plays I like now I've been getting fun facts from the interview guests. So your son plays college at the University of Tennessee and you visited every MLB baseball park in the country.
Sean (21:34):
That's true.
Kim (21:34):
Is he your only child?
Sean (21:36):
No, I have a daughter also. Her name's Rosie. She's a junior at the University of Alabama.
Kim (21:41):
Alright, so I'm going to head right into rapid fire after this. How do you balance being a CEO as you're raising your kids? Obviously they're in college now, but you were a CEO while they were more of a handful.
Sean (21:52):
Yeah, so for me, I don't use the word balance, I use integrate and that's because I just don't think I can truly balance everything a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit there. I've tried to make my work, my personal and my spiritual life all integrate. I'm very involved in my church. I've got clients that go to the same church. I've got clients I've met at that church. I coached my son's baseball until he was 13 years old. I've got clients that were parents on those teams. I've spent a lot of time making sure that I can be living my personal life at two in the afternoon on a Tuesday and I can be doing work at four in the afternoon on a Saturday. So it's all integrated and I don't look at it as like this is the compartment for this and this is the compartment for this. I integrate it all. So really anything I'm doing like this here today, is this for work or is this for me personally or is there a spiritual message that I'm also delivering and what I'm doing today? I think it's all integrated and so the more I'm integrated, no matter how hard I'm working, I feel pretty balanced and I think my kids would tell you I didn't miss a lot of their activities even though as A-C-E-O-I was very busy because I made sure that it all aligned.
Kim (23:05):
Love that. Okay, we're going to do rapid fire one. What does success look like for you?
Sean (23:10):
Success is achieving the goals you set out for no matter what other people's impressions are of your goals
Kim (23:18):
In your personal life, what always gets a yes and what always gets a no.
Sean (23:22):
What always gets a yes in my personal life is the needs of my wife and my children. What always gets a no is people that are in effect loud, obnoxious, or just nasty.
Kim (23:37):
Oh, when you said loud, obnoxious, I'm like, but you're on my show. I'm just kidding. I'm not nasty. I am slightly loud. And last question, funny or embarrassing work moment.
Sean (23:48):
So when I first started 30 years ago, we had an award here and it was lovingly known as the Dumbass Award and it was given every April 15th at the end of our tax season by our managing partner to the individual who did the dumbest thing in the busy season timeframe to merit that award. I got it as an intern and I'll tell you that I won it four times in my career. So perhaps maybe to be a CEO, you've got to be the dumb ass more often than others. I don't know.
Kim (24:21):
Were there specific things that earned it for you? Very specific moments.
Sean (24:26):
I had our managing partner at the time digging through trash looking for something that actually didn't exist. So I thought I had lost something. I thought it was in the trash, it actually didn't exist, and I had the CEO of our business, if you will, digging out trash looking for something that wasn't there. When we realized it wasn't there, I thought, well, I'm surely getting fired and no, I didn't get fired. I just got the DA award.
Kim (24:50):
That's quite a turnaround, a four time dumbass winner to becoming the CEO. That's got to be a record. I like that.
Sean (24:56):
I have won it more than anybody else has wanted. That is true. We have some three time winners and they seem to brag about it. Like I brag about it too,
Kim (25:05):
It's like instead of rags to riches, it's like I got to think about what it is. Instead of rags to riches, it's like bottom to the top, but it's under the bottom. It's like underground. It's literally sewer to the penthouse, like sewer to penthouse. Sean, this has been so great. I really appreciate you joining us. Listeners should be aware, worst advice I ever got, they should be grabbing it on their podcast. How can people connect with you, the company or the podcast?
Sean (25:30):
Yeah, absolutely. So the worst advice I ever got, you can find it wherever you listen to your podcasts, so just look for it by title. We'll also have an Instagram page for the worst advice I ever got. Our website is smith-howard.com. You can certainly find us there and if you want to get in touch with me personally, can email me at sTaylor@smithhoward.com and I'll be happy to respond.
Kim (25:55):
Awesome. Thank you so much.
(26:00):
Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to exit the grind and enter success on your own terms. This is the exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Don't forget to grab my free download, how to Grow Your Business with Amazing video at kimrittberg.com and linked out in the show notes. I'd love to hear your feedback, make sure to submit to me what you learned from the show and how you are crushing it on your own terms. Connect with me on Instagram or LinkedIn at Kim Rittberg, R-I-T-T-B-E-R-G. And this show is edited by Jillian Grover and produced by Henry Street Media. I'm your host and executive producer, Kim Rittberg.