EP. 19 / Fast Company’s Kate Davis on remote work, flex jobs, ambition, opting out & quiet quitting
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What’s the future of remote work? Do flex jobs exist? Does ambition matter anymore? Is quiet quitting really a thing? Kate Davis, Deputy Editor of Fast Company and the host of The New Way We Work podcast joins us! She answers our burning questions about today’s workplaces, what careers can look like. Plus she shares a sneak peek and her learnings from her deeply reported miniseries The Ambition Diaries which interviews 7 pairs of mother and daughters across a variety of topics like Leaning In & Opting Out, economic mobility, discrimination, and work-life balance.
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Show Takeaways from Kate Davis:
REMOTE WORK
Remote work is not going away. The companies that are trying to recreate 2019 are losing people, are failing, are getting huge pushback from their employees and you know rightfully so.
9 to 5 sitting in front of your computer is such an old school way to think. Real flexibility definitely matters. Employers are starting to wake up to that more.
LABOR MOVEMENT
Another trend we are seeing is the labor movement, workers' rights and the workers kind of pushing back against expectations. We are seeing a shift in the power dynamic. The younger generation especially has a lot of interest in labor organizing and having more workers' rights.
We are also seeing a drive to purposeful and meaningful work and finding meaning in your work - doing something that connects with what matters to you personally.
JOB SHARING & FLEX WORK
If employers want to think more creatively about positions there’s definitely a way that that can work. In some European countries we’re seeing job sharing - 1 role, 1 full-time role but done by 2 part time people, and so one one person work two days a week and the other works three days a week or whatever and together they both have salary and benefits and together they make up what previously was was 1 full time job…. But then you have the creep like you say you're only working two days a week but you're still getting the messages, and the work hours creep and creep and creep and now your part-time job is really actually a full-time job that you're only like in the office or in front of your computer two days a week but you're working all of these like extra hours.
I would caution against from both the employee and the employer standpoint - if you say part- time to really truly mean part-time and be able to design the job realistically that your expectations can be fulfilled in a part-time capacity.
In other countries where they're doing these job sharings, those weren't posted jobs. Those were things the employees thought of and were like ‘hey in order for you know they were working full time and they're like this isn't working for us. What about if we do this?’ So a lot of that rethinking how work can work is starting at the employee level, not the management level.
WOMEN’S CAREER PROGRESS “SET BACK BY A GENERATION”
5.4 million women left or lost their jobs in the first year of the pandemic and that set women's career progress in the the labor force back by a generation.
The cost to parents is rising. There's staffing shortages because child care workers get paid so horribly. There's staffing shortages, teacher shortages at you know, child care centers and that's a huge reason why so many women can't return to the workforce or have to seek more flexible arrangements.
The biggest issue right now for parents is the child care crisis…It really needs to be fixed on a policy level.
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EPISODE LINKS:
The New Way We Work podcast Ambition Diaries miniseries Kate Davis on Twitter
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Kim Rittberg (00:00):
What is happening in the working world for moms? How are jobs changing or shifting? We have the deputy editor of Fast Company, Kate Davis here. She has amazing insight into work. What is going on with jobs, with ambition in the post pandemic world. How our company is trying to keep women. It is a great conversation and she knows exactly what we're looking for.
Kate Devis (00:21):
We don't want our work to be this like soul crushing, you know, thankless thing anymore. We want those hours that we spend at work to mean something.
Kim Rittberg (00:33):
This is moms exit interview, the show for moms who wanna craft the career and life they want. Each episode, you'll meet inspirational bombs across various industries and levels who are working and living life on their own terms. And they'll bring you actionable tips from finance to business development to happiness, to crushing that imposter syndrome. I'm Kim Rittberg. I was a burnt out media executive at Netflix, US Weekly and in TV news. I wanted a career where I was fulfilled at work but present at home with my kids. So I started working for myself and I love it, but not every day was easy or is easy. I wanted to explore with all of you how other moms were creating careers on their own terms. They're carving out flex jobs, starting their own businesses. They're taking back control. Join me and make work work for you instead of the other way around.
Kim Rittberg (01:37):
Thank you again so much for listening. If you haven't, please drop a five star rating interview. Hit follow on that show. It helps us reach more people. And my little fingers have been writing up a newsletter with the tips and takeaways from each episode, so you don't have to, you could sign up for that in the show notes or on moms exit interview.com. And if you like this podcast or love this podcast, well, I am the executive producer and I in my day job, I make amazing content to help businesses and professionals grow their revenue. And I also help them be better on camera. If that's something you're interested in, go visit me kimrittberg.com and you can sign up for my newsletter. And now I am so excited to bring you Kate Davis because did you know 5.4 million women left the labor force at the beginning of the pandemic? And some estimate that there are still a million fewer women in the workforce. Wow. Well, Kate Davis is fast Company's deputy editor. She has an amazing podcast called The New Way We Work and it has a mini series where she had seven reporters across the country interview seven pairs of mother and daughters on a variety of topics.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Success was not doing your best in everything. Like not putting a hundred percent of your energy and effort into every single thing you do. Cuz if you did that, you would get burned out and exhausted. But it's being discerning about where you wanna put your energy.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
I am now at Entrepreneur Beast <laugh>. I am not going back to sales. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, unless I'm selling my own stuff. Black Coffee Bling llc. My ambition is more now and I think it's because I'm getting older, so I have to make these years count.
Kim Rittberg (03:19):
It is just super interesting. So Kate and I talk all about that. They're called, it's called the Ambition Diaries. We talk about what's the deal with quiet, quitting the glass ceiling, What's going on with flex work and job sharing? What are companies offering more of since the Pandemic? What are the biggest issues for women and how do we combat it? Anyway, Kate Davis is here and let's get right to it. So Kate, thank you so much for joining us.
Kate Devis (03:42):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
Kim Rittberg (03:45):
So for your podcast, The New Way We Work, you're running a multi-part series called The Ambition Diaries. And for that you've been interviewing pairs of mothers and daughters across the country about topics ranging from economic mobility, discrimination, work life balance, how Covid changed our relationship to work and more, I love this. This is like the perfect topic for our show. Mom's Exit Interview,
Kate Devis (04:06):
<laugh>. This is a, a project, honestly so near and dear to my heart and something I have been thinking about for many, many years. And you know, and, and it, the catalyst for it was thinking about how my career trajectory has been so different from my mothers and, and wanting to hear how that's played out in other families and how, how, how things have changed over the last generation and how they haven't and, and really the like kind of news peg for why now is that news that, you know, women's career progress has been set back a generation as a, as a result of the pandemic.
Kim Rittberg (04:40):
And Kate, do you have children?
Kate Devis (04:42):
I do. I have two kids. Um, one is six and one is almost three. And the almost three year old I was on maternity leave with her, um, when the pandemic happened. So I was, I was really right in the thick of it.
Kim Rittberg (04:54):
You're feeling it, You're totally feeling it. That. So I need to talk to you about flex work, Kate, you're the expert I've been waiting to hear from. So truly a lot of people, including myself, are very excited about this as a concept. So since the pandemic, we're seeing a lot more flex work, remote work. We at mom's exit interview, so we did a big survey of listeners. That was one of the top things they want, They want flexibility. I mean, personally it was like it was my number one driver to work for myself having flexibility. I have control from your reporting both on the ambition diaries, but over your career, cuz you're such an expert in this, What do you foresee in the next few years regarding remote work?
Kate Devis (05:30):
So, you know, we, we were in such a fast company. We were in such a good position to, to start reporting on this, I'll say like air quotes trend because we had been reporting on it for years. We knew that this was coming and we had actually, we ran a package in January of 2020 called, um, something like, you know, work 2040, like basically predicting that we would be in this like, like remote work world in 20 years. And then wow, bam, it got sped up, but like we were moving this way anyways, it just makes sense on so many levels. I mean, and, and it was so slow coming solely because change is hard and so solely because employers are like, well no, this is how it's always been done, so this is how we have to do it. And then when they couldn't, when their hand was forced and you couldn't come into the office, then they adapted and they figured out how to do it.
Kate Devis (06:26):
And there's no going back. Like, you know, we, I've talked to many people that it's like there's no putting this genie back in the bottle. And you're seeing that the, the companies that are trying to do it, that are trying to recreate 2019 are losing people, are failing, are getting huge pushback from their employees. And, you know, rightfully so. Like you better learn a lesson from this this time period. And so remote work is not going away. Hybrid work makes sense I think for a lot of, a lot of individuals and a lot of companies. Um, but hybrid work with like the flexibility to not have hybrid work. So, you know, at at Fast company we have returned to office in a hybrid fashion. People who are in the New York area come in twice a week similar to like what a lot of companies are doing, but you're always gonna have some remote employees and it's not shutting those employees out.
Kate Devis (07:14):
And it's really, you know, the boon, as I said, is opening the talent pool to the entire world, or at least the entire United States, rather than just the people who happen to be in a 20 mile radius of where your office is. And so that's a huge Boone, you're getting such a bigger talent pool, you're not missing out on, on people anymore. Um, but then the other, you know, trend that has started that was kind of bubbling already and has, is boiling even more now and will continue to, to go is kind of the labor movement, the, like workers' rights, the workers kind of pushing back against expectations of this is just how things are going to be so beyond flexibility, beyond, um, remote and hybrid work. And there's a lot of different forms those can take. So, you know, we've covered on the show, um, totally asynchronous workplaces.
Kate Devis (08:03):
We've covered places that have the four day work week. There's like lots of different kind of shapes that, that the hours that you work can take place. And I think experimentation in that's going to continue. But also just what's expected of, of you as an employee and what your rights are as an employee and kind of a power, a shift in the power dynamic. You know, with the great resignation we have seen the, the power is more in employee's hands. There is a, the younger generation especially has a lot of interest in, um, labor organizing and, and having more workers rights. Um, there's a lot, and we heard this on Ambition diaries a lot, and we see this play out too, is a lot more of a, a drive to like purposeful and meaningful work and finding meaning in your work and doing something that connects with what matters to you personally.
Kate Devis (08:53):
Working for a comp, if you are working for a company and not working for yourself, working for a company that lives its values. You know, there was, we had a giant, you know, racial reckoning and you know, people, the hollow statements of inclusion like aren't cutting it anymore. And people do not wanna work for a company that doesn't get it. You know, they wanna work for a company that walks the walk and is ethical. And, and so those are all things that are happening now, had been bubbling up before and will just continue to happen over the next several years.
Kim Rittberg (09:27):
And talk to me about flex work or part-time work two days a week, three days a week. What do you see happening there right now and what do you see happening into the future?
Kate Devis (09:36):
So I think flexibility is something that it's a must have. You know, like the, the idea that you have the whole like butts in seats from nine to five sitting in front of your computer or whatever, like such an old school way to think, you know, true flexibility where you really can. And that's, you know, again, there's some, some a little bit more radical approaches to that. Things like asynchronous work where you literally do not have an amount of time that you're, or a, a time a business day that you're supposed to be at your computer and that you can do your work anytime. You know, there's, there's those approaches. Um, but, but like real flexibility definitely matters, you know, definitely people are, employers are starting to wake up to that more. But as far as, as, you know, and, and when we say like part-time work two or three days a week, there's, you know, you can think of that as like in office versus not in office. Or if you think of it like truly part-time, like literally only, you know, working two days a week
Kim Rittberg (10:35):
And two day week, three day week or four day a week, salaried benefit jobs. Do you see, what do you see happening with those either right now or into the future?
Kate Devis (10:44):
I think that there's a way, you know, if if employers wanna think more creatively about positions, I think there's a definitely a way that that can work. And we've, we've covered on the show something interesting that happens, um, in some European countries, which is job sharing. So one role, um, you know, my full-time role, but done by two part-time people. And so one, one person works, you know, two days a week and the other works three days a week or whatever. And together they make, and they both have salary and benefits and together they make up what previously was was one full-time job. I think that that can work. I think that I totally get why part-time work is appealing. One caution that I've had, and one thing that that we've covered and have seen happen is that sometimes it can be a trap. Like sometimes you can say like, Oh yes, I'm going to scale down.
Kate Devis (11:33):
I'm going to work part-time. Um, so a lot of times with that would come a salary cut, right? Uh, and then you have the creep, like you say you're only working two days a week, but you're still getting the messages. You're still, and like the work hours creep and creep and creep, and now your part-time job is really actually a full-time job that you're only like in the office or in front of your computer two days a week, but you're working all of these like extra hours. So that's, that's something I would caution against from both the employee and the employer standpoint, is if you say part-time to really truly mean part-time and be able to design the job realistically, that your expectations can be fulfilled in a part-time capacity.
Kim Rittberg (12:12):
Do you see more companies interested in offering two, three or four day a week jobs? Do you think that as a, as an actual job that exists via posting or available to people, do you see that as something that is growing?
Kate Devis (12:26):
You know, that hasn't been happening as much and I think that it's, uh, another like kind of slow getting employers to, to think more creatively about, about jobs. You know, it is still, I think people, employers seem to approach things, right? In a like, uh, salaried full-time position or a freelance contractor, um, approach. And I think so, so when they have something that they are fulfilling and not a, a full-time capacity, sometimes it is that like contractor freelance app approach. I, you know, I I do think that it would open up, you know, in the same way that remote hiring has, has opened up a bigger talent pool, thinking more creatively about your job postings and, and your filling your positions will open up a, a bigger talent pool as well.
Kim Rittberg (13:09):
It's interesting, one of the things that I have found by talking to people from mom's exit interview is that those part-time jobs, three day week or four day week or whatever, they exist, but they're not posted. They're either you had a full-time job, you negotiated individually or like, I had a job where I was sort of like a contractor freelance. It was three days a week. There weren't benefits, but it was, the rate was good. I it was consistent for a year and a half. So I think it's interesting that I do see them existing, but to your point, they might not be on indeed.com, you know? Mm-hmm.
Kate Devis (13:38):
<affirmative>, it's, and it's, you know, and, and to that point, you know, the, what I talked about in, in other countries where they're doing these job sharings, again, those weren't posted jobs. Those weren't, those were things the employees thought of and were like, Hey, in order for, you know, they were working full-time and they're like, This isn't working for us. What about if we do this? So, so a lot of that, like, rethinking how work can work is starting at the employee level, not the the management level.
Kim Rittberg (14:03):
I love that. Um, what other trends do you see now that, now that I know that you are like the sooth sayer of the work world, I'm first of all gonna just email you and be like, look into your fu look into the future, look into the crystal ball, Kate <laugh>. Um, tell me what, what you see in terms of trends both for working or hiring, either within corporate America, traditional workplaces or in the entrepreneurial world.
Kate Devis (14:28):
So the biggest change that I think is coming for the corporate world, the entrepreneurial world and America in general, is that the, there's going to be a huge demographic shift. So it's predicted that by 20 40, 20 45, the US will be majority non-white. Uh, Gen Z is the most diverse group. Um, young people are by and large more liberal, they are more supportive of labor unions and work life balance. They, you know, when, when this group becomes the managers, it's going to be a big shift in the thinking of what work is and what, how work gets done. Who, you know, how work is shaped, like, all of these things that we are talking about and all of the resistance to it really comes from an old mindset, you know, it's really like, this is how things were done. This is, there's some degree of like, this is what I had to go through.
Kate Devis (15:22):
So you have to go through it too. Oh my God, yes. You know, but it's also, but it's also like the, you know, even when you look at something like return to office, who are the people who are pushing for a return to office? It's the old managers who wanna get back because they wanna monitor their employees and see that they're working. I mean, we, we covered a, a survey recently that, that that said exactly that the main reason why employee, when managers want their employees back is so that they can watch them so they can monitor them. You know, there's, I was, I'm, I was surprised to learn how many companies use tracking software to like track mouse clicks for their employees. This kind of, you know, like anxiety about getting work done that's, that's out the door. Like that's, there's, there's a shift coming when there's this, you know, generational shift in demographic shift are approach to work when these, when, when Gen Z are, are the managers, you know, a lot of things are going to be be different.
Kim Rittberg (16:20):
It's so, it's so, so, so true. It's that whole, well I had to do it, so, so do you mm-hmm.
Kate Devis (16:25):
<affirmative>, like, and, and like it was really hard for me, like, I suffered, so you should have to suffer too. And there's two ways to think about that, right? There's like, I suffered so you should have to suffer two or I suffered, so I'm gonna make sure it's better.
Kim Rittberg (16:39):
Yeah, I'd love to see more of the second. That's awesome. Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah.
Kate Devis (16:43):
Yeah, that's, I mean, those are the, that's great. Those are the managers we need or those are the managers we need. Or the man or the, or the, I almost said kids, which is gonna show how old I am, but like the, the, the younger generation coming up saying, No, I'm not doing it that way and I'm gonna make sure that nobody has to do it that way. You know?
Kim Rittberg (17:00):
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Um, talk to me about what you are seeing, because we're talking about families and parents in your mini series, the ambition diaries. What are you seeing specifically for parents from the working world?
Kate Devis (17:11):
So, you know, as I, as I mentioned before, kind of like the, the catalyst for this four, or I'm sorry, 5.4 million women left or lost their jobs in the first year of the pandemic. And that set women's career progress in the, the labor force back by a generation. And that's just like we, we maybe have heard that statistic before, right? But that's staggering. And you know, a lot of those jobs have been recovered, but by some estimates there's still about a million fewer women in the workforce. And women are almost always, as we talked about, women are almost always the default parent that got highlighted even more with, with the pandemic and how much, you know, unpaid labor kind of fell on them. You know, I would say, and I, I think every parent under the sun would probably agree with me. The biggest issue right now for parents is the childcare crisis.
Kate Devis (18:03):
It's, you know, cost to parents are rising. Uh, there's staffing shortages because childcare workers get paid so horribly. There's staffing shortages, teacher shortages at, at, you know, childcare centers. And that's a huge reason why so many women can't return to the workforce or have to have to seek more flexible arrangements or have to work part-time or have to do these things. And now obviously some parents, you know, wanna wanna scale back by choice. But a lot of women, a lot of talent is being, is being forced to scale back. And we are, you know, and it's hurting our economy. It's, it's hurting our workforces. It's hurt, you know, it's a, it's a brain drain. Like we're losing talent, we're losing, um, you know, we're, we're losing workers. And it's something that, you know, there have been some creative kind of fixes and, and benefits on, um, individual private employer levels, but it's really something that, and we've covered this extensively and we can't beat the drum of it enough that really needs to be fixed on a policy level. And, and it's, you know, it's something that would benefit, again, like the entire American economy.
Kim Rittberg (19:11):
It is so true, right? Cuz the money, it's not just where people are, what they're doing, it's, they're not putting that money or they're putting that money back in the economy. It's, it really does impact everything. It's, I'm not really an economics expert, but even then I understand <laugh>. Yeah,
Kate Devis (19:24):
It's, I mean, it's like when you, when you have fewer workers in the workforce, it hurts the economy. Like, you know, like it's kind of one of the, the easiest, uh, things to understand. Yeah,
Kim Rittberg (19:34):
Absolutely. And I also know that in the ambition diaries you focus on, well, drum roll please, ambition. So I love the, of an episode called does ambition even matter anymore, Kate, Does ambition matter?
Kate Devis (19:50):
Yeah, It's, I mean, and that was, you know, that was something that was also a catalyst for this, for, for this, um, series and for this series now is because our relationship to work has drastically changed. You know, not just where we do work and how we do work, but like our feelings about work and how our identities are tied up in work and, and, you know, that's, and how we define success. You know, I think a lot of people, and this is something we heard from a lot of women in ambition diaries, both the mothers and the daughters, um, defined work by that traditional career ladder of like, you go to college, you get an internship, you get a job, you climb the career ladder, you keep getting promotions, you keep getting raises, and then you, you know, honestly under my breath, and then you, you hit a glass ceiling and you can't go any further.
Kate Devis (20:36):
But, um, you know, and a lot of, but what we heard in a lot of those stories is that along the way, along that traditional ladder of success, they bumped up against horrible sexism and, and racism and discrimination. They bun bumped up against policies that were incredibly unfriendly to, to working mothers. Um, and not even policies a lot. You know, like we, in our discrimination episode, we, we talk a lot about pregnancy discrimination, which a lot of the women, um, either experienced or witnessed, but also just, you know, as we've talked about workplaces that are kind of hostile to mothers, uh, you know, one of, one of the mothers talked about how her boss would like purposely send the mothers home last just to be mean. Like, just, you know, like, Oh, everybody I heard
Kim Rittberg (21:20):
Say, Oh, I heard that soundbite. I was like, Ugh. I had a job where one colleague, he was a dad and I didn't have kids at the time, I did not realize it was Halloween. And it was like he couldn't leave two hours early mm-hmm. <affirmative> to go trick or treat with his son. And now that I'm a parent,
Kate Devis (21:35):
It's heartbreaking. Cause that's heartbreaking. That's what life is, that's what life is about, is those moments. And like, you'll never get that back because your stupid boss wanted you to stay for a stupid reason. I mean, you know, how do you,
Kim Rittberg (21:47):
How dare dare you not give him the opportunity to get his children sugared up, have a temper tantrum, go to bed late, and have the worst day of your life, please.
Kate Devis (21:54):
Yes. That's a, that's a memory you'll cherish forever. Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, and, and so I don't, you know, I don't know about universally like, I don't know if everybody's feeling this, but it's certainly people, people are feeling it, it is something, there is a shift and, and there's certainly, you know, the traditional definition of ambition and does success still matter anymore, is something that a lot of people are thinking about because the pandemic upended one, our relationship to work because a lot of people lost their jobs, or, you know, their jobs naturally took a backseat because there were more pressing issues. But two, you know, not to get too heavy, but mortality, like, we, we started to think about like, well, you know, that, that old cliche, like on your deathbed, nobody says, I wish I would've spent more time at the office. Like, it really kind of refocused like what matters the most mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, and I, and I will say in the last episode of the series, that that kind of reprioritization of, of what's really important and defining what makes meaningful work and wanting to make those, you know, cuz there's been that, that assertion lately, right? I think Kim Kardashian said it of like, no one wants to work anymore. And like, that's not true. We have to work like we have to make a living, we want to work, but it's,
Kim Rittberg (23:12):
Yes, Kim Kardashian, if you give me a billion dollars, I won't work anymore. I'll take, I'm 10, maybe 10 million, I'll say 10 million of Kim Kardashians dollars. Sure.
Kate Devis (23:20):
Exactly. Like we, it's not that we don't want to work, like we have to work, we have to work, but we don't want our work to be this like soul crushing, you know, thankless thing anymore. We want those hours that we spend at work to mean something. If, if you're going to leave your children, you know, if you're a parent and you're going to leave your children for however many hours a day, you want what you're doing to mean something. And, you know, so for, for others, that kind of reevaluation for, for some of the women in, in the series, some of that reevaluation started before the pandemic. You know, for others that the kind of force slow down, you know, made them kind of realize it and or gave them the opportunity to start kind of changing things. And, and again, like that change doesn't have to look super dramatic. I mean, I still have my same job. I'm very happy in my still same job, but I live in a different place. And for other people, you know, it doesn't, it also doesn't mean leaving their job, but maybe it means changing a little something about their job. I think there's a lot of different approaches that we can think about work differently.
Kim Rittberg (24:21):
I love that. That's so true. I, it's very interesting. I have a lot of thoughts on ambition because, so I'm very driven like many people, you know, but since working for myself, I've realized there is a point when it's enough and you just have to like say pause. And it's funny, we had Gretchen Rubin on the show, one of her things was like, it's okay to have some errors in your work where you're coasting. Like over time it's not gonna bring you fulfillment because what you said before, people do want it to have some meaning, and you don't need to be solving the world's problems. But to say, Ooh, I found a solution for that client, or, Ooh, I helped a colleague do X. Or like, I found a more interesting way to do why just being proud of the work you do, no matter the field, no matter the level is important. So I, I think that's just interesting. I have, I think we all have different relationships with ambition and like how we tap it down or maybe, maybe some people coast. But if you're listening to this podcast, you maybe you don't coast, but, um, rather, your podcast people don't coast. Just kidding. Um, my question, Kate, what's going on with quiet quitting?
Kate Devis (25:29):
So I, well, well first I will say, you know, to to what you were saying about the, the, you know, coasting or, or like tamping it down or, or ramping it up. I definitely, I, I feel that and I see that, and I, you know, even in my own life, I feel like, I feel like there are seasons of life, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like there was this season of my life where my ambition and my career, like the, the kind of the climbing the ladder, the, like, all of those things was the most important time. And that, you know, those were those career building years of like twenties and thirties. And I had my kids a little bit later in life and, you know, now I'm, I'm working and I found like I got established and I got in a role that, that suits me.
Kate Devis (26:11):
And, and I got to that place that I was trying to get to, right? Like that it was all the, like, trying to get to there. So now that I'm at that place that I'm trying to get to, the season of life isn't about hustle, hustle, hustle, climb, climb, climb. It's about, it's about my kids right now. You know, it's about doing my job that I find meaning in and and enjoy and then also having my life and then who knows, after my kids grow up, maybe there's the, the next act and that's about something else. But I think, you know, giving yourself permission to think of your, that it doesn't have to be foot on the gas climbing the, the ladder to what, you know, like, to what am I gonna own my own media company? Like what are you climbing the ladder to? And like when will you be happy? When does it, when does the climbing, when can you stop climbing? You know,
Kim Rittberg (26:53):
You can hire me at that media company, which you're not starting, but,
Kate Devis (26:55):
Right. Well, maybe that's my third, that's my third act. That's when I'm not starting a media company while my kids are little, but maybe I'll, I'm not you <laugh> I'll, you know, maybe, maybe I'll do that when they're older, but <laugh>, um, but you asked a totally a totally different question answer. No, it's perfect.
Kim Rittberg (27:10):
Kate, what is going on with quiet quitting?
Kate Devis (27:13):
Oh, okay. So I will say I'm not a super fan of that term, <laugh>. Um, I feel that it's, you know, uh, uh, something that people are giving a term to something that kind of already existed. So it's, it's people not who are not engaged in their work. And quiet quitting is really, you know, we've also covered quiet firing, which is when you're a manager and you're just like not offering your, uh, employee career advancement, and so you're, you're quietly firing them, you're just like not helping them grow. And then they end up leaving, you know, quiet, quitting is kind of the same. Like, you're not giving it to me at my job. You're not helping me grow. You're not, I don't see a, a future for me here, so I'm just gonna coast until I find something else, or I quit, or I'm, you know, it's quiet.
Kate Devis (27:58):
Quitting just means a disengaged worker really, in my opinion. And quiet quit. Like if, if you think that you have employees that are doing that, a you should know, like you should be a good enough manager that you can tell whether or not your employees are engaged or not. And then if you think that they are falling into that category, then it's a matter of like being a better manager, talking to them about, you know, what, what do you need in this role? What are you looking for in your career? You know, how, where do you want to be? What type of work do you wanna be doing? And how can we change it? Or what's, what's your sticking point? What's your unhappiness point? Is it flexibility? Is it whatever, you know, Or is this just not the right job for you? Like sometimes it's that sometimes it's like, this isn't the right fit, but it's, you know, it's, it's not a new phenomenon. I think, you
Kim Rittberg (28:43):
Know, I'm like, I think that people just love a new phrase and it's like, Oh, what you mean? It's called coasting. And we've all had those colleagues, they're not your favorite employees as a manager, but maybe they also get the work done and you couldn't find someone better than them. And so for whatever amount of time you work together, you just live with it. Right? <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. Right. So Kate, I'd love to talk about relationships. So you have one episode called Leaning in and opting Out. I'm obsessed with that title. Um, what are some of the biggest takeaways for you from your reporting?
Kate Devis (29:10):
Yeah, and so, so kind of the, the, the play on words there, right? Was that, and I, and I say it in the episode is I'm sure we'll all remember that the famous shale sandberg, um, quote from Lean in that the person that you marry is the biggest career decision you'll ever make. Um, and you know, and that's something I wanted to explore, like how that that plays out in families. And, and so what, you know, one thing that we heard, unfortunately, a lot of which isn't very surprising, is that a lot of the, the dads and partners were not helping out. And that was especially true of the, the mother generation. So the mothers for, for this project ranged in age from like fifties to seventies, um, you know, squarely the boomer generation and the daughters were kind of squarely in the, the thirties ish, you know, twenties to to late thirties, millennial generation.
Kate Devis (29:57):
Um, but yeah, you know, from, from one of the, the mother daughters, um, Francesca and Dita, uh, Dita, the mother talked about how the dad didn't help at all. And she had, and she was a, you know, a high kind of a high powered, uh, corporate executive. And so she had a nanny. And the nanny, like she would, she, she tells, you know, a story about how she would sit down with the nanny and like map out, you know, you, you know, any mother knows all of the, all of the stuff of motherhood, right, of parenthood, of all of the, like figuring out camps and, and after schools and all of the things that need to be done. Her partner was just not there for that. And it was, she was lucky enough to be able to have a nanny and have the hired help.
Kate Devis (30:37):
On the other hand, you know, we, we heard from some mothers who did not have that and ended up having to quit their jobs. You know, that's something we, we hear a lot too, um, on the, on the, you know, and, and kind of also within that realm, there was a mother and daughter, um, Bianca and Kelly who, you know, Kelly, when she had to work late. And this is this beautiful, there's in ambition diaries to so many of these beautiful moments of mothers saying, I've never told you that before. And daughters saying, You know, I never really thought about this before. I never looked at it from your point of view or how it must have been for you. And there, there's one of those moments where the daughter Bianca says to her mother, you know, we always waited for you to make dinner. Like even if you didn't get home from work until 8:00 PM we would just all be there mad about why isn't dinner ready and would just wait for you to get home to make it. And none of us thought to start dinner on our own, you know, <laugh>. And it's like, like, and she's having this realization as a 30 something. You're like, Why the hell didn't we just make ourselves dinner? You know? And like I think a lot of people will relate to that and like will feel that, um, that's like welcome
Kim Rittberg (31:45):
To the last quarter, century of the 20th century
Kate Devis (31:47):
<laugh>, right? And, and you know, I, I will, I will say this, my my mother and, and father-in-law both worked and my father, you know, now they're the retired in their, in their seventies. And my father-in-law said, Yeah, I've never made dinner day in my life, like in the entire marriage. And I'm like, Why the hell not? You both had jobs, you know? Um, but yeah, that, I mean, I think, you know, we, we heard that a lot in that generation. That of it just wasn't even thought it was still, even if the mothers worked, even if the mothers worked full time, it wasn't even thought of that the responsibilities at home should be shared. But I will say we also heard really interestingly and refreshingly the other side of that. So there were, um, two different mothers. Uh, one was, uh, Ruth, who actually she ran for, she was a democratic, uh, nominee for mayor of New York City in, in the nineties. Um, she did not win as we <laugh> as as we know. Um, she, she, uh,
Kim Rittberg (32:41):
Spoiler alert, spoiler,
Kate Devis (32:42):
Spoiler alert, it was, it was Giuliani spoiler alert. But, um, you know, she, you know, she had a daughter and she wanted to work and she was really ambitious. And she said, You know, there's different, there has to be a different way to do this. And she raised her daughter in a cooperative house. Her father, the father was actually took a much more active role, but also other adults in the house all worked together to help raise, raise the child. And that's, you know, that's a, a way that's like, kind of foreign, I think, to a lot of us and, and thinking about like how kids are raised, but it totally worked for them and it's a totally, you know, it was a way that she was able to able to have both. Cuz that's that other thing, right? Like how can you have it all?
Kate Devis (33:22):
And, and then the other example is, um, Janelle and her daughter Kylie, and Janelle is a, in a same sex relationship and you know, they, they kind of maybe were a little freed of those traditional gender roles, and she's like, I'm going to work full time. She worked at Microsoft, She had a, a very fulfilling and long career there. And her spouse was the one that said, You know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm going to take the, the main parent, the the primary parent lead there. So it was nice to hear that there were some people who have thought about things in a less traditional way and kind of figured out how to make it work.
Kim Rittberg (33:54):
And this episode that digs into partners and relationships and how that impacts your career choices in parenthood. I wanna focus specifically on working and leaving work. That idea of opting out. I, I like to say I lean sideways. Like I didn't lean out of corporate. I didn't like decide to be a stay at home, but I didn't necessarily lean in. So it's like lean sideways. So for this, when you're talking about working or leaving work and how, and how that relates to relationships, what did you learn about that for current? The, the younger generation?
Kate Devis (34:24):
So the younger generation, you know, is thinking about things a lot differently, you know, seeing how things worked for their mothers. So, you know, for example, um, there's a, a mother and daughter, Vicky and Christina and, um, vi Vicky ended up having to drop out of, out of college because she was pregnant. And she was like, I can't make this work. And then she, she could never kind of go back to work and make it work because the cost of childcare and that, that's something that has not changed. The cost of childcare is so much higher than the money that she'd be like, it financially didn't make sense. And we see that again and again because of course pay gap when they're, you know, it's usually women who who make less and then there's that kind of opting, opting out. That's not a choice, that's kind of forced.
Kate Devis (35:08):
Um, but it, it does, you know, we did hear that then those daughters seeing from their mothers the way that they struggled, it certainly informed their, you know, how they view their partnerships and wanting a more equal partnerships. That, and, and also how they kind of viewed their career and that it wasn't, you know, for, for Vicky and Christina, her daughter then saw all of the unpaid work that her mother ended up doing. So she didn't, she didn't work for pay, but she volunteered at the school and the PTA and did all of these things. And she's like, I wanna do that. She was inspired by her, but she's like, But I'm going to make it a career. And she became a teacher and now she's becoming a teacher who helps train other teachers. So she's, she's kind of took that, you know, the progress that I see there is really beautiful. Like her, her mother had to work for no pay, had to do all of this unpaid labor that we talk about a lot. She's like, No, I'm going to turn that into a career and no, in fact, I'm going to turn it into a career that's going to help other people do it better.
Kim Rittberg (36:06):
I love that. And people say finances are the top thing that couples fight about. I've heard from experts on moms exit interview that really you need to have great communication in partnership about what your choices are. Um, and childcare. What are you learning and hearing in terms of that, in terms of the communication between the relationships?
Kate Devis (36:25):
I mean, so, you know, when it comes to childcare, like I said, it's, you know, the, you know, and we cover this extensively, you know, on fast company, online, on, on the new way We Work, we've covered it in other ways. It's, it's a huge sticking point that isn't something that's solvable necessarily on an individual level, right? Because childcare, the cost of childcare, you know, keeps increasing, especially post pandemic. The cost of childcare, increased cost to parents increased, um, at least around 5%. But meanwhile, there's a lot less, you know, spots open childcare costs more than college tuition in every single state. You know, it's, and it's a major factor. And the how that plays out in people's individual lives is it's a major, um, decision factor on a, where they're, whether or not they're going to have more kids. Like that's a conversation that a lot of people have.
Kate Devis (37:16):
Like, Can you even afford not, not, do I want a kid? Is it the right time for us? Just can we literally afford it? Which is heartbreaking, It's so sad to think that you maybe wouldn't have children because of the cost of childcare. Um, but then also where you live, what sorts of jobs you're, you know, you're taking. And you know, I will say, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm part of this, this realm, like part of why this, you know, this, these stories appealed to me so much is I've had to make a lot of those decisions and, and Welo my family relocated during the pandemic in a large, if not the entire reason why we relocated was making things more affordable for our family. So I think those, you know, and that's one silver lining of the pandemic, is that it has allowed people to work remotely and rethink their relationship to work and what work is and, and be able to, you know, relocate perhaps to some, somewhere that's more affordable and to be able to make, to have their family that way they want.
Kim Rittberg (38:14):
And a note to the listeners, so Kate used to live in New York City, Brooklyn, maybe?
Kate Devis (38:18):
Yes, Yes. I love how you just guessed. Like it was probably Brooklyn, right? Oh,
Kim Rittberg (38:24):
So many people in media are the arts live in Brooklyn, but Kate went from Brooklyn to Michigan. So I think that that is a general reflection of a lot of other people, you know, making those choices and
Kate Devis (38:33):
Yeah, and that's, you know, and I, and I say this, you know, um, in some of our episodes, I, you know, talk about my own story a little bit, and it, it is that, you know, I prioritized, I, you know, I say in the episode, like, I prioritized my ambition for the first about 20 years of my career, you know, like where I lived and what I did. Everything was in service of what I, my dream, my career goals. And now that I'm established in my career, I think that, and you know, and we're seeing, we're, we're seeing that, we heard that with a lot of these women too, is, is they get to a certain point. They're like, Okay, I got here, what else is important now? And I'm, you know, and I'm, and I'm like, and I'm lucky enough, I feel very privileged that, you know, I'm able to continue to do the, the job that I love and the work that I love and not have to stay in New York City because that was a, an albatros for a lot of people is, you know, all of the jobs are concentrated on the West coast or the East Coast, and if you can't happen to afford to live in those cities, then you're locked out of those industries.
Kate Devis (39:36):
And I think it's a really wonderful thing now that more people are not locked out of those industries.
Kim Rittberg (39:42):
That's, that's such a good, it's such a great point. And then when you were saying, what was the major, for you personally, what was the major push to move from New York to Michigan permanently knowing at some point, maybe your company is gonna say, Come on back. What was the, what really pushed you?
Kate Devis (39:56):
Well, I made sure that they wouldn't say that <laugh>, that was, that was what that was. I had, I mean, that the first stop was a conversation with my boss, and it was, you know, you know, really, you know, gratifying that she was like, You absolutely can continue to do your career. There's absolutely no reason why you, why you can't, You know, And I think that's something that, you know, any, any manager needs to open their mind to. Like, if you have a good employee, trust them to do their job, not sitting in front of you at the office, you know? Um, but yeah, for me it was really, we were living in a 500 square foot apartment in Brooklyn with two children and a couple of cats. And it was, we were at a breaking point. We were at, you know, a pressure cooker, and we could not afford, you know, we couldn't afford something bigger, we couldn't afford to buy, and we were just stuck there because our jobs were there.
Kim Rittberg (40:44):
And the, you know, the liberating the, you know, how liberating remote work was, it's like, Oh, if this is an option, I can still keep my job. I can still keep doing what I'm doing, and I can live somewhere that's going to give me a better quality of life. And my, my family's originally from Michigan, so we're much closer to my family now. We, you know, have a house in a yard. We have, you know, it has upped our quality of life, and it obviously has not like downgraded my relationship, you know, my, my ability to do my job,
Kim Rittberg (41:15):
I'm like a house and a yard. Wow. Right?
Kate Devis (41:18):
<laugh>,
Kim Rittberg (41:18):
There's
Kate Devis (41:19):
A whole other way to live.
Kim Rittberg (41:20):
Oh my goodness. A whole way to live.
Kate Devis (41:23):
The new way We Work is, uh, a podcast that we've been doing for, oh my God, I think four years, um, at Fast Company. And it, you know, in it, it really kind of, of, we kind of explore, like our tagline is like, um, you know, build help you figure out what you need to build the future. We want. It's really thinking about how, you know, both for managers and for employees and for just, I literally say like, it's for anybody who has a job <laugh> it's
Kim Rittberg (41:48):
For,
Kate Devis (41:48):
Which is, which is like most of us, um, you know, it's, it's, it's all of those things. It's thinking more deeply about how work gets done. It's thinking more deeply about diversity, equity, inclusion. It's about the future of work. It's, it's, you know, that's, that's what we, what kind of the issues that everybody's always thinking about. We really try to dive in and figure them out. And, you know, my, my final plug for Ambition Diaries is, you know, I hope that it's something that resonates with not just mothers and daughters, not just women, but, but kind of everybody. You know, I, I think, you know, I've, I've been at Fast Company for nine years. I've been covering these sorts of topics for, for longer than that. I think they're internally fa you know, forever fascinating and interesting. But the, the one thing that's always kind of missing from them, right, is we report on the statistics and the, the economic impact and the trends and like all of those, but you don't get to hear what that, how that really plays out in people's lives.
Kate Devis (42:42):
And, and that's what I'm so proud of with Ambition Diaries and what my goal was, you know, seven reporters across the country, such a diverse group of, of women that they spoke to. And these, you know, my, my producer Josh calls them like audio poems. I mean, there's just these like heart wrenching, beautiful moments. You know, I, I've been seeped in it and reading the transcripts, and I still cry when I listen to the episodes. Like, it's just these like, beautiful, beautiful moments to like put a, you know, and that, and that's good for, you know, employers and managers and stuff to hear too. Like, you can hear the statistics about childcare, you can hear the statistics about all of these things, but when you hear how it plays out in people's actual lives, it, it resonates so much more and like, makes, you know, makes an impact.
Kim Rittberg (43:25):
It's really so impressive. Just that that much work behind a miniseries is so impressive. And thank you. It's, it's, it's just really hearing voices. It's, you're right, reading a statistic and then hearing the people behind it. And I've, you know, I, I've, I've heard the episodes that are out and I have advanced previews of the other ones, and it's just to hear what they've gone through and what's going to be happening, You know, I love that it's both a look back at the mothers, but also a look ahead for the daughters who are making the next generation of workers. It's just so fascinating. So, Kate, thank you. I'm really excited about
Kate Devis (43:55):
It. Well, thank you so much for letting me talk about it. Obviously this is a, a project near and dear to my heart.
Kim Rittberg (44:02):
Awesome. And you could listen to the New Way We Work from Fast Company and Kate Davis, wherever you get your podcast. And make sure to listen to the mini series, The Ambition Diaries that's gonna be linked out in the show notes. Just wanted to share some listener feedback. I read every single one and I so, so appreciate it. This one says, Just wanted to send a note saying how much I enjoy your podcast and content. My colleague and I were the first to pitch and champion a job share. So your work is something I'm very passionate about. I'll continue to send fellow corporate and non corporate working moms your way. Thank you for everything you do. Three exclamation points. Thank you so much, Laura. Beth, I thank you for writing in. I really appreciate it. It means so much to me cuz I put a lot into the show. So getting feedback just feels awesome.
Kim Rittberg (44:49):
Thank you so much for listening. We wanna hear from you. Tell us what topics you want us to cover and what questions you have for upcoming shows and experts. We will read everyone and we will use them. You can find us everywhere. Go to www.kimrittberg.com, scroll down to find the contact button, or you can DM me on Instagram at Kim Rittberg. Or you can leave your feedback right inside your review in the podcast app. Please follow the show in Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen and leave review in a five star rating. And don't forget to share it with people who will find it valuable. It's truly meant to be a resource. And this is Mom's Exit interview. I'm your host and executive producer, Kim Rittberg. The show is produced by Henry Street Media. John Haitz is our editor, and Aliza Friedlander is our producer and publicist.