EP. 20 / Whole30 Co-Founder & CEO Melissa Urban on building a business, setting boundaries & cold showers
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Want to see if entrepreneurship is for you? Have a side hustle and want to turn it into a successful company? Looking for more balance as a working mom?
Melissa Urban explains how she took her Whole30 detox diet from side hustle during her insurance job to national phenomenon and became a NYT bestselling author…despite never intending to be an entrepreneur. She has great scripts to help us create boundaries like how to say ‘no’ more often and how to politely decline whether it’s networking, extra duties at work or volunteering. We love her perspective and advice – how she balances parenting, why you shouldn’t try to “have it all,” how she grew the business, how she now works 30 hours a week – but we may pause before acting on her recommendation to take cold showers!
Then in our Real Mom moment, Monique Meneses shares what her daughter learned watching mommy launch Iota body.
In this conversation with Melisa you’ll learn:
Why it’s important to not try to “have it all”
Melissa’s tips to unwind and balance (but no I won’t do a cold shower!
How she took her diet idea from side hustle to big business
Scripts to say ‘no’ to things - whether at work, in networking or at school
Scripts for a well-intentioned in-law who drops by uninvited
Realizing you don’t need a reason to say no!
Takeaways from our guest, Melissa Urban, Whole30 CEO
“I had no desire ever to start my own business. None whatsoever. I let, I was really happy in my job. When a hundred people or 200 people report back the same life changing remarkably similar results. That was the moment where I was like, we have something here and it's really good. And it was something I could be passionate about in a way that of course I couldn't about my insurance job.”
“All the things I said about how I was going to work once I had my kid I just want to smack myself the number of times I said like well I'll just work while he naps oh my goodness I had no idea what was coming”
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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Kim Rittberg (00:01):
The founder of the whole 30 is here. And guess what? She's also an accidental entrepreneur.
Melissa Urban (00:07):
I had no desire ever to start my own business. When I think back to all the things I said about how I was going to work once I had my kid, I just wanna smack myself the number of times I said like, Well, I'll just work while he naps. Oh my goodness, I had no idea what was coming.
Kim Rittberg (00:22):
You'll hear how she turned her side hustle into a national phenomenon, a hugely successful business, and many bestselling books. Plus she has advice for moms trying to balance.
Melissa Urban (00:34):
I think I would try to unlearn or help people resist that pressure that falls so heavily on moms to be able to do it all and have it all.
Kim Rittberg (00:47):
Plus, she has great tips on how to create boundaries. Specifically things like when people are asking too much of you and work, or when unwanted visitors drop by your house.
Kim Rittberg (01:00):
This is mom's exit interview, the show for moms who wanna craft the career and life they want. Each episode, you'll meet inspirational moms across various industries and levels who are working and living life on their own terms, and they'll bring you actionable tips from finance to business development to happiness, to crushing that imposter syndrome. I'm Kim Rittberg. I was a burnt out media executive at Netflix, US Weekly and in TV news. I wanted a career where I was fulfilled at work but present at home with my kids. So I started working for myself and I love it, but not every day was easy or is easy. I wanted to explore with all of you how other moms were creating careers on their own terms. They're carving out flex jobs, starting their own businesses. They're taking back control. Join me and make work work for you instead of the other way around.
Kim Rittberg (02:04):
Thank you for being here and listening. If you haven't, please, please drop a five star reading and review and follow the show. It helps us reach more listeners and also, unlike a normal job, when your boss says he has feedback for you, I love getting feedback, so please keep sending that in. Also, I've been writing up a newsletter with awesome tips from the show, so make sure to sign up for that on Mom's exit interview. Lastly, if you like this podcast, I produce it myself. I also produce the social video assets to go with it. That is my day job. I'm an award-winning content creator. I help brands and professionals grow by being better on camera and creating amazing content across video and podcasts. Anyway, if you want more on that kimrittberg.com, that's in the show notes. So I'm gonna start by saying I'm not one of those people who wakes up before the kids wake up to get things done.
Kim Rittberg (02:53):
I pretty much only do it if I'm overloaded or can't sleep. But today is one of those mornings I, as you can hear, maybe my voice is a little scratchy. I couldn't sleep this morning, so I got up before the kids were up to do some scripts and recording for this very podcast. While I'm tired and not so cranky this morning, just like a little cranky <laugh>, but I looked outside and I see the most gorgeous sunrise. It's quarterly r and g pink and the clouds are thin and horizontal and it's set against the twinkling lights of New York City and it definitely takes the sting out of an early morning wake up. I'm showing to my daughter right now. She's looking, she's see the see it right over there. Yeah, she's smiling. So my daughter Lily is here with me. She said she had a nightmare, so I told her she can keep me company.
Kim Rittberg (03:40):
We're gonna cut a little bit and roots and bucks. Um, and if my voice sounds a little horse, it's also could be that I'm coaching my daughter's soccer league. My voice is a little horse from cheering, never, ever, ever yelling, I promise. How's this? How's the season going? Good, good. Okay, great. Anyway, now for the show today we have a master business person, someone whose idea and execution of the idea has captivated the world. The whole 30 co-founder Whole 30 is a 30 day elimination detox diet. I sat down with Melissa Urban and here are some things I just loved about this chat. First of all, she asked me what mom guilt was, so bless her. I love that attitude. She has tips on how we can actually resist the pressure to have it all. She shares her schedule for each day and how she fits in exercise and quality time with her son. Plus she has great business tips for entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs. And lastly, I kid you not, she wrote a book about boundaries. I was taking notes when she was telling us how to create boundaries. I don't know one person, especially a mom who can't use some help saying no to things. I for sure are gonna try these out in my life. Let's get started.
Melissa Urban (04:51):
Hi, my name is Melissa Urban. I'm the whole 30 co-founder and ceo. Um, I am a New York Times bestselling author and my newest book, The Book of Boundaries, is out October 11th.
Kim Rittberg (05:02):
And can you gimme a little mini bio for listeners? Like where did you grow up? Where do you live now? I know you have one child. Tell us a little bit about
Melissa Urban (05:08):
That. Yeah, I grew up in Nashville and New Hampshire, so East Coast girl. And I moved here to Salt Lake City, Utah about 12 years ago, specifically for the mountains, but also because it's got an awesome airport and I travel a lot for work. I am married, uh, recently remarried. So my husband and I have been married for about a year and a half. I have a nine year old son who's amazing and a Google named Henry.
Kim Rittberg (05:32):
So for people who are listening who've been living under a rock, can you explain what the whole 30
Melissa Urban (05:36):
Is? I can. So the whole 30 is a 30 day self experiment designed to teach people how the foods they've been eating work for them in their unique context. So every dietician in the world says there is no one size fits all approach to diet. You have to figure out what works for you. And people go, Cool, that makes sense. How do I figure out what works for me? And Whole 30 is the answer to how, So for 30 days you eliminate foods that are commonly problematic to varying degrees across a broad range of people. And you see what happens Does eliminating these potentially problematic foods impact in a positive way? Your energy, your sleep, your mood, your digestion, your cravings, joint pain and swelling, allergies, asthma, all of these things can be impacted by the food you eat, even the healthy stuff. And at the end of the 30 days, you then reintroduce those food groups back in one at a time, carefully and systematically like a scientific experiment and compare your experience. So at the end of the program, you will know how these foods impact you in your unique context and you'll be able to create the perfect sustainable diet for you, whatever that looks like in your food freedom.
Kim Rittberg (06:41):
Amazing. I like to come up with something that's such a sensation is just incredible. And obviously like you really tapped into something unique and incredible. Can you tell us, how did you come up with the idea? Like I, I've read a little bit about your story. You were, you were recovering from an addiction, and then can you tell us, tell me a little bit about that briefly.
Melissa Urban (07:00):
Yeah, I, So yes, my journey with health and fitness started in about 2000 when I entered into recovery for my drug addiction for the second time. And I decided that I was gonna just completely reinvent myself and become a healthy person with healthy habits. In 2009, the whole 30 started, it's just a two person self experiment. I was super into CrossFit. I had been, you know, paying attention to what I ate and eating healthy. And we had attended a nutrition seminar put on by CrossFit and decided like, let's just do this super kind of really strict 30 day experiment where we pull all of these potentially inflammatory foods out according to some, you know, research that had been floating around, um, in the paleo community. And like, let's see what happens. I was hoping to see recovery improvements in my fitness and maybe fitness improvements, but I was already eating pretty healthy and I really didn't expect a huge change.
Melissa Urban (07:54):
And those 30 days were so profoundly transformational, not just for my energy, my sleep, my mood, my skin, my performance and recovery in the gym, but it completely transformed my emotional relationship with food. I say that my first whole 30 was the first time ever that I was able to get off the scale and out of the mirror and it was so profoundly impactful that I decided to share about it on my little CrossFit training blog. And few hundred people were like, Yeah, I would try that. And that was really where the whole 30 began in July, 2009.
Kim Rittberg (08:26):
So this is pretty incredible just because, okay, that's 2009, we're now, I don't know one person who either hasn't tried it or knows about it, like yeah, you know, And so talk to me about from 2009, from that point at which you're like, I'm onto something. A hundred people are reading and interested to it getting really big.
Melissa Urban (08:46):
Yeah, I had a full-time job at the time. I worked for an insurance company. I had worked for them for 10 years. I managed 25 different people in three different offices. So I was in a managerial world, but, and like doing whole 30 on the side on nights and weekends and in 2010 I was like, okay, something's gotta give. I either have to kind of give this whole 30 thing my full attention and see if it can take off. And so I quit my job full time and and started running whole 30 full time. And it really grew the award of mouth. We didn't do any advertising or marketing for a decade, it was just, I was incredibly well connected with the CrossFit community and they were really well connected online before the days of like social media being huge, they had their message board and forum.
Melissa Urban (09:26):
So my philosophy, which I guess is a valid business growth philosophy, but I didn't know it at the time though I had a business degree, was just to give a bunch of stuff away for free. I was gonna get proof of concept by giving as many resources away as I could, leading people through the program, getting their feedback, incorporating their feedback in to make it better, listening to what they needed to be more successful. So by the time, the time the time came in 2011 to write my first book, I was like, cool, I've got three years of like thousands of people's testimonials and clinical evidence to support what I wanted to write in this book.
Kim Rittberg (10:02):
So a lot of times on this show I ask somebody like, what was your aha moment to leave corporate and start your own thing? You're working insurance and then you have an idea for whole 30 and then you do it. Did you wanna go work for yourself? Was it hard to leave a full-time job with benefits? Like how, what, where was your head at in that time?
Melissa Urban (10:19):
I had no desire ever to start my own business. None whatsoever. I let, I was really happy in my job. I liked working for the company, I liked the personal growth opportunities that it invited. I had, I was making a great salary, I had excellent benefits. But you know, when two people do a self experiment, they have really cool results. You're like, All right, that's awesome. Good for you. When a hundred people or 200 people report back the same life changing remarkably similar results. That was the moment where I was like, we have something here and it's really good. And it was something I could be passionate about in a way that of course I couldn't about my insurance job. And it really incorporated all of the aspects of my holistic health and fitness practice, right? I was gonna get paid to like write, which was one of my favorite things to do and go to the gym and be healthy and focus on my nutrition. And so it was really, I had saved enough. Um, I was finally like in a decent place financially where I didn't have a ton of debt and I was like, I'm just gonna go see if I can make this work. And I wasn't scared, I wasn't worried about it. I was like, if this doesn't work, I'll just get another job. And there's so much privilege in that statement and I completely recognize that. But that was my attitude at the time.
Kim Rittberg (11:32):
That was gonna be my next question cuz I think that if you don't hate your job and you're not dying to start a business, it is scary because you're giving up benefits, you're giving up salary. Like as a friend of mine said to me, they're like, you're so brave for running your own business. And I'm like, why is that? She's like, in a job you can sit there and do nothing and you're still gonna get paid. So I guess my question was isn't it, it wasn't, did it not scare you to say, Oh my salary and my benefits?
Melissa Urban (11:58):
No. Um, for one, I am a very hard worker and I am very con, I'm confident in my capabilities in that I know that I'm really good at what I do and I know that I work really hard at what I do. And I was really sure that the program was good. And as long as we continued to kind of still get the way that I thought we needed to by giving a lot of stuff away for free and listening to the community that it would grow. And also I recognized that in a large part because of my privilege, if I needed to go get another job, I could. I worked my way up at the insurance company for an administrative assistant up to like middle management with really high performance reviews and really high marks. And I felt like that combined with my privilege, the fact that I'm a white, straight, thin privilege able body person could walk into any other company and get a job. So I wasn't nervous about it. I wasn't scared. My mom was definitely scared that I didn't have health insurance and I was like, I'm healthy. We'll figure it out. <laugh>, maybe it's like you don't know what you don't know. And that's a blessing in disguise because certainly now I'd be like, Wow, that's risky. But at the time I was young and was like, okay, you know, let's just go for it.
Kim Rittberg (13:08):
You're like, who needs health insurance? I have bandaids in a thermometer and a bottle. That's, I'm fine.
Melissa Urban (13:13):
I mean, again, and the privilege in that statement, because I had never been sick in my life. I had never required significant hospital care or doctor care. I barely had a primary care physician. So again, looking back now, I'm like wow, there's so much unearned privilege in how you chose to live your life back then. And I can see it now, but I didn't know that back then. I just thought let's give it a go.
Kim Rittberg (13:34):
I have to ask you, cuz we do talk a lot about careers in the show, working in insurance, are there any phrases like office or corporate phrases that you never wanna hear again?
Melissa Urban (13:44):
I think they cycle in and out, right? Like close the loop, put a pin in it, uh, circle back. Like, I don't know, I think they, they kind of cycle in and out in like Zoom. Culture has its own sort of phrasing, but no, not necessarily. The one thing I don't miss about the insurance industry and that I love about running my own business is that like there is no red tape whatsoever. I can do it any way I want. I don't have to do it a certain way. I don't have to have protocols in place if I don't want to. I can do it in a way that's like most efficient for me. I really took that to heart when I started my own business because I came from such a world of red tape.
Kim Rittberg (14:19):
Yeah, someone asked me like, what are one of the things you don't have to deal with anymore working for yourself? I'm like, office politics. I don't have to think for 20 minutes about how to write an email, how to say something. I don't have to like write five emails to get one thing done. It's just like totally different. Yeah. Um, talk to me about when you started Whole 30, you were not a mom, now you are a mom. So as a working mom, how has your, how has your work life shifted being a working mom versus when you started it? I feel like before you have kids, you know, you can work as hard as you want. Time is endless, time is infinite. Like you could just hustle forever, job side hustle. How has that changed since becoming a parent?
Melissa Urban (14:56):
I mean, I wanna, when I think back to all the things I said about how I was going to work once I had my kid, I just wanna smack myself the number of times I said like, Well I'll just work while he naps. Oh my goodness, I had no idea what was coming. And I don't think anybody does and nobody can prepare you for it, but you know, having a child, a baby really changes everything in terms of your priorities, in terms of how you structure your day. I was so lucky that I worked from home and I could pump whenever I wanted and I could tell everybody I don't take calls before 10:10 AM and I've gotta duck out. Like I, I set my own rules and it would've been infinitely harder had I had to go back to a nine to five after six weeks or eight weeks, which a lot of people do.
Melissa Urban (15:39):
But it definitely shifted and made me cement my own boundaries with myself even further in that, you know, I'm really glad that I got all of my entrepreneurial, I have to hustle 24 7, I've gotta sleep while you're, I've gotta work while you're sleeping. And I got all of that outta my system before I had my kid. I realized quickly that that was unsustainable. I was gonna burn out and I got my shit together early and then I had my kid and so I already had some healthy boundaries in place and they just reinforced the need for like even healthy or stronger boundaries.
Kim Rittberg (16:10):
Yeah, I was thinking about the pregnancy period, not pregnancy, the breastfeeding period that like first year. Yeah, I think forever it's impacted whether you're asking for permission from a boss or if you're working for yourself, it continues on. But that era where your baby needs you so much and having that opportunity to say, Oh, I'm gonna pump or breastfeed or, or nurse or whatever in these times, I don't have to like figure out a way to get to some cement room and waste, Not waste, but like that's, you know, 30 minutes or an hour taken from work. It's just very, it's a very stressful time. I'm, I think I had have a little trauma coming back to me as we're talking about this. It's
Melissa Urban (16:47):
So, it has to be so incredibly stressful and the only way that I felt like I, I mean I had postpartum depression at four years, at four months. So I mean we're all going through so much and then to have to add expectations around leaving the home and leaving my child with childcare and how I'm gonna pump and the mom guilt that comes along with it, like it's, it's overwhelming. It really can be.
Kim Rittberg (17:09):
Speaking of childcare, what is your childcare situation?
Melissa Urban (17:12):
I've had a nanny for him since he was one. He's had the same nanny all along. She works for us full time, not in house, but he would, because I work from home and I've always worked from home, I quickly realized that he needed to leave my house or I was gonna be pestered all day long, you know, when he was one and running around. So she has a son that's almost exactly his age. They've kind of grown up together. She kicks him over to her house and they play and now she is also still in his life where she picks him up from school and they play together for a couple hours before I go pick him up at the end of my workday. So again, been super lucky to have one really consistent presence in his life and she's obviously become like a very close friend for us too.
Kim Rittberg (17:51):
I feel like it's interesting sometimes people are surprised when you say you've childcare or a nanny and maybe it's just because I live in New York City and it's like really, really common. I'm like, if you're working a lot of hours and you're cobbling things together or you know, relying on family and then switching sits, it's just really challenging. It's just a logistical seriously logistically challenging. So like, I don't know, I think some people are like, thank you for being honest about saying you have a nanny. Well like, I'm not surprised you have a nanny, you have a big, you run like a really big company, you have a, a hugely popular, you know, books and product. I don't know. So anyway, I think that I like talking about childcare because I think people feel like it's this like hidden thing that no one talks about. And like to, to your point before, if you can start a business and do work while your baby is sleeping, I applaud you. That is incredible. But it extremely hard. You're extremely tired, you know, you, your brain's not working at max capacity, you're exhausted. Many people have postpartum. So anyway, I just like, I think that's an important part that I try to incorporate into the show. And then when people are surprised, I'm like, I don't think that's surprising. <laugh>.
Melissa Urban (18:53):
Yeah, I mean we could have done the child, we could have done the daycare route or the other route, but we really want, because we worked from home, I wanted someone who could be in the house with when he was an infant, she, you know, was in the house with us and I was taking care of him as often as I could and when I needed to take a call she would be there with him. So it was kind of the best of both worlds for me where I got to have him present but I wasn't his primary caregiver the entire workday. So it worked well for us.
Kim Rittberg (19:20):
This month I'll be joined by Fast Company deputy editor Kate Davis. Kate's the host of a podcast called The New Way We Work, which is a show about the changing landscape of work life. How appropriate for this audience. Kate has a miniseries airing all month on her show called Ambition Diaries. Ambition Diaries includes interviews with 14 mothers and daughters from across the country about a lot of the issues that are so crucial to us, economic mobility, discrimination, work life balance, and the recalibration of ambition in a post pandemic world. So very true. Kate will be joining me on mom's exit interview to talk about what she heard from these women about the creative ways they found balance between work and home life and how many of them reinvented their careers. We love to hear that, right? If you wanna sneak peek at ambition diaries, head over to fast company.com/ambition-diaries or subscribe to the new way we work wherever you get your podcasts.
Kim Rittberg (20:19):
What do you wish you had known earlier or what's some advice you would give to another, to another parent who, who's running a business and trying to balance?
Melissa Urban (20:27):
Ugh. Um, I think I would try to unlearn or help people resist that pressure that falls so heavily on moms to be able to do it all and have it all and then feel bad that you're not effective with your baby and that you're not being a good mom and feel bad that you're not giving enough to your career and you're not giving enough to your spouse. I think it, there's so much pressure heed upon us that we can reject, We really can. And it does require the help of our partner. So, you know, my husband right now and I have had tons of conversations about how we are going to share household and childcare responsibilities and they have been very granular like, okay, on Tuesday and Thursday you take him to school, you are on duty from seven 30 until eight 30. I can do whatever I want during that time cuz you're on duty.
Melissa Urban (21:21):
And I think those kinds of conversations are incredibly important, especially if you're about to bring a child into the life, have these conversations around like, okay, we both need to get ready for work and we need to take care of the baby and these are all the things that need to happen for the baby, the bottle and the daycare and the what, this and that. Who's gonna do what, When are we gonna do it? What is the schedule gonna look like? I think resisting that pressure and then realizing that there are some actions that we can take to offset some of that pressure solely falling on us as the woman and as the mom, as the default can go a huge way towards making that transition a lot easier.
Kim Rittberg (21:55):
Do you feel like there still is that expectation to do it all as a mom?
Melissa Urban (21:59):
Yes. Yes. As long as we are living in a patriarchy, absolutely there is, we have these societally imposed messages that we are all swimming in that I grew up in that are influenced, you know, by every single facet of our life, whether it's work or school or social situations that we shouldn't have needs, that we should put everyone else's needs and comfort ahead of our own that to have our needs or express them or somehow selfish that the, again, default is on us for taking care of the household and taking care of the child. And by the way, we don't value that as like actual labor. We just think that that's like your domain and you are now like the default for taking care of it. And if you want our help as the partner, as the father, you can ask for it. But like that's your job to ask for it too and manage that entire mental load. Yeah, I think the pressure is intense and definitely we're more aware of it and I definitely see more resources to help people combat it, but I do think that that's what I grew up with and it's been a really big unlearning process.
Kim Rittberg (23:03):
And even if you're the breadwinner or a person making a lot of money or, or working really hard, those pressures, you feel like those societal pressures don't diminish just because you are running a big company. That's, that is not, that's separate and aside.
Melissa Urban (23:17):
No, I mean even I think that makes things even harder because now you're in the spotlight and it's like, well, you know, sure she's a CEO running a really successful company, but like how good a mom can she be? How good a mom can she be if she's like outsourcing her childcare and she's not home with her kid and she's taking all of these trips and she's gonna be gone for three weeks on book tour and like you, you can't escape. You're, you can't escape the fact that you're not doing it right no matter what you do.
Kim Rittberg (23:42):
So how good a mom are you?
Melissa Urban (23:44):
I'm a great mom, I'm a great, I'm a much better mom than I thought I would be. I will tell you that right now. And my sister confirms this. I remember the first time she saw me with my son and she was like, I gotta tell you, don't be offended, but you are so much more patient than I thought you would be. And I was like, I know, right? My child has instilled in me this well of patients that I did not know existed and that now has carried over into other areas of my life. Um, I can show up for him when I feel like I can't show up for anybody else if he needs me. Like I can turn it on and be there. And that extends into other periods of my life. I'm more graceful with myself, I think then I have been because I recognize that like we're all just doing the best we can and there's no playbook and there's no manual and you know, he's gonna need therapy no matter what. So like all we can do is the best that we can, but I'm a really good mom. Yeah,
Kim Rittberg (24:36):
I laugh but you you said that, Sorry, I laugh because you said the therapy. Yeah. My daughter who's seven is a feeler, very sensitive, which I am not. And I'm like, I think I'm an awesome mom, but she's gonna be on a therapist couch regardless. So I'm gonna do my best, I'm gonna do my best and yeah, whatever that doctor's gonna help us.
Melissa Urban (24:54):
Yeah. And that's not to say that I always get it right. Not at all. I am constantly learning. There are definitely some stories that I think back to about the way that I behaved with him and I'm like, oh my gosh, it just, it hurts. Like, oh, why did I yell at you? You were just needing some comfort. Like of course I don't always get it right, but you know, I have grace for myself just like I have grace for him. So
Kim Rittberg (25:16):
I agree with what you're saying. I feel like to me parenting is so much more fun than I thought I was gonna be. Like I, I just never, I never had a picture, I never had a picture of like my wedding in a white dress and never to my picture of my family. I just was like, I don't know, life will happen and then it'll be there. A I think it's more fun and b I'm so much more like empathetic and nurturing to especially my daughter who's dissimilar to me. I'm like, Oh, I have this capability. I didn't, knowing what the capability this is like nice. Like I I I'm showing up for her in a way that's a little challenging for me. And so I agree with you that you learn things about yourself and you, my mom will be like, Oh, you're such a great mom or if you really think about what you do and I'm like, yeah, I might not always be doing it. Right. But there is thoughtfulness there. Yeah. And I think, and even though I think there's too much pressure on parents, I do think generationally there's a thoughtfulness around parenting now and it's not, oh my god, throw the perfect birthday party. Oh my God, have a super sweet 16 level birthday party. It's not that, but it's like, if you're even thinking about how you're raising your kids in the message you're sending, you're doing a great job.
Melissa Urban (26:18):
Yeah, absolutely. And that, you know, it goes for not passing down like, you know, ideologies, like diet culture, not passing down. My, my family had no boundaries growing up whatsoever and I'm not, I'm now modeling healthy boundaries for my kids. So I am more conscientious and again, he's gonna get older and be like, wow, I wish we had done this differently or my mom didn't do this for me and I really needed it and I completely understand. But there is a thoughtfulness around it for sure.
Kim Rittberg (26:43):
What is no boundaries from your, from your household? Like what does that mean for
Melissa Urban (26:46):
You? Oh, I mean, so in my, I grew up with a big Catholic Portuguese family and in my family if you didn't talk about it, it didn't exist. So when people got divorces, when people got drinking problems, when people got sick, like I had to find out way down the line that like an uncle of mine had cancer because they just didn't want, they didn't wanna tell me they, Oh, we didn't wanna tell you Melissa, we didn't wanna bother you. And I'm like, What? This has been going on for such a long time. So I will say my mom is a lot better about this now because we've had these conversations where I'm like, you can't not like, it doesn't make it go away if you just don't talk about it. But in my family we just had this like, there were no healthy boundaries. It was just, if it was good we could talk about it. And if it wasn't good, we all had this sort of task that understanding that like we would never bring it up or look at it ever again. And it was very dysfunctional.
Kim Rittberg (27:36):
I I wanna ask you about your, your schedule. Like how many, how many hours a week do you work?
Melissa Urban (27:43):
I start work, I start work at about 10:00 AM every day. Um, it's rare that I do calls or media or anything before 10:00 AM I am right now in a bit of a busy season getting ready for the book launch, but in general I don't, I block out that morning for my morning routine to hang out with my son, get him off to school or whatever and then catch up on like email a little bit. So I started at 10. I usually take a break around two when my kind of creativity and juices sort of run out and I'll go for a short walk or hang out with my husband for a few or eat some lunch or something. And then I'm winding down by about 4:00 PM so I'm working on relatively full day. There are obviously seasons where I'm busier than others, but I don't work nights, I don't work weekends unless it's like a seriously urgent situation. When I'm with my son, I'm with him and I'm not, you know, responding to work emails or sending work emails. If I have an idea I'll jot it down somewhere, you know, in my notes app or something. But um, yeah it's, I have a pretty set schedule and I've been pretty protective of my morning routine, especially in my evening routine with my son.
Kim Rittberg (28:45):
I know we talked a little bit about this before. Do you get mom guilt
Melissa Urban (28:50):
In what, in what way?
Kim Rittberg (28:52):
Just in general that feeling of not doing enough, Not being enough, not doing it right. I mean,
Melissa Urban (28:57):
Yeah sure, of course I do. Right when he has a field trip and wants me to chaperone and they told us two days before the trip and I've got a packed schedule that day and I can't, yeah, I wish I could be there for him in all of those opportunities. Um, of course I do. I don't, I wouldn't say it's guilt though because I recognize that I can't be in two places at once and I have a job and I deserve to have this job that I love so much. But I do think that there are missed opportunities in every facet where you're like, man, there's like an opportunity cost and I get it, but sometimes it sucks. Sure,
Kim Rittberg (29:30):
Yeah. Okay. This, sometimes I ask this to people like, what are you asking? Do you have like a vision for your life? Like I want my life to look like this and that's sort of your hierarchy of how you organize your time or your plans or your future goals or anything like that?
Melissa Urban (29:46):
No, I've never had that. It's ne I like don't, I'm not a vision board person. Um, I'm not like a goal person. Occasionally if I'm in a peer, if I'm in like a particular season, I will sit down in my meditation practice cause I do a little meditation after every workout and I will think about future me and like the ideal future me, what does she look like, what is she doing? And I will like ask future me like what do I need to do to get there? I had this happen most recently when I was feeling really run down really sick, struggling with my workouts, just feeling like heavy and tired and depressed. And I did a few meditations where I asked future me what I needed and she immediately said Do less, do less. You're doing too much, do less. And I was like, damnit. So I cut back on my workouts. I started just like mostly walking and doing some really lightweight stuff. I prioritized sleeping, I just started doing less and I immediately felt better. And that kind of continued me all through the summer. So it's not necessarily like a vision of what I want my life to look like, but I do have strategies if I feel like things aren't working right now where I'm like a little bit stuck where I try to tap into my intuition and be like, okay, what do I need to move forward
Kim Rittberg (30:55):
And future You is like the wisest version, the the version of you who advises you? It's like a mixture of like a therapist and a guru, right?
Melissa Urban (31:04):
Yeah, it's like alter, she's like on a parallel timeline where like everything is going well and I was feeling good and I was energetic and loving my workouts again and had time, you know, really wanted to connect with like my family and my friends and it turns out what I needed to do to get there. It was just do less.
Kim Rittberg (31:19):
I like that. I'm gonna put a sticky note on my, on my computer future made. I have some sticky note Remi. I try to do the holistic happiness versions of like what do I want? I try to put that on sticky notes so just remind me. But I like future made. That's a really,
Melissa Urban (31:31):
I like that I wrote a newsletter about it. I'll send it to you.
Kim Rittberg (31:34):
Yeah, I love that. Um, you had just mentioned um, meditation, so I wanted, do you have recommendations for, for moms things that work for you that, that you'd recommend others do that you feel like help in your life?
Melissa Urban (31:47):
Well, okay, this, I mean nobody's gonna like me after this, but I will tell you that the thing that makes the most difference in terms of my energy, my mood, it is like the, the caffeine that I do not drink. Cuz I have been caffeine free for a while cause it doesn't agree with me. Cold shower first thing in the morning. I know nobody likes it. I know, but let me tell you, it is freaking magical. I wake up in the morning, I'm dragging had a, you know, whatever. My kid is like begging me for Robux already and I'm like three minutes buddy. And I get into that shower and I turn it as cold as you know and I walk out a brand new person. I am happy, I am energized, I'm ready to go. My mood is better. It's like a hack and I know that you hate it but I promise it's worth it.
Kim Rittberg (32:31):
First of all, once a year or once every two years I find an article that tells me I need to do a cold shower and I hate cold water This weekend I'm doing a polar plunge actually. Ooh,
Melissa Urban (32:41):
I love that.
Kim Rittberg (32:42):
It's not that cold to be honest. Like it's not, it's not like January temperatures of the water, but it's colder than I'm comfortable with. So I think the challenge is good. It's good to have a challenge. I'm using it as a modeling for my children. Mommy's afraid, mommy's scared but mommy's gonna do it. You're gonna try hard but okay, cold shower, that's your recommendation. What about meditation? Um, do is meditation a big part of your, your philosophy?
Melissa Urban (33:06):
It is part of my morning routine. Um, so I go cold shower, I do my workout or like a walk or some kind of like movement and then immediately when I'm done I just do a really short kind of three to five minute meditation. It's a self-guided meditation that a friend of mine came up with where you just sort of think through things. You're grateful for people in your life that you might wanna lift up or send love or send light to. You set your intention for the day and then you just sort of sit and listen to the sounds around you. And I find it incredibly grounding. I think the most important thing though that I've learned as a mom is that you can't have this like all or nothing mentality. Like if I can't show up for my hour long workout, I might as well not bother.
Melissa Urban (33:44):
Sometimes I go into my garage and I do 10 minutes of movement. That's all I do and that counts this idea of just, I think about showing up as opposed to setting this relatively unrealistic goal that I might not be able to meet. And then considering myself a failure because I didn't need it. My goal in the morning is to show up whatever that looks like. So if it's 10 minutes, if I can get 30 minutes, if I can get an hour if I can't do anything but I just go out to the garage and sort of sit on my mat and do some meditation or some stretching that count. So don't let perfect be the enemy of good here. Whatever you can do in the moment to show up for yourself. Absolutely gown and makes a really big difference.
Kim Rittberg (34:21):
And yours is walking, yoga, stretching. Do you do any like intense cardio still? I know you said you used to do uh, CrossFit.
Melissa Urban (34:28):
No, I don't do any of that anymore. It's not great for my, it's not good for me. Just doesn't work super well for me. I lift really heavy weight so I do a lot of power lifting. I do body weight stuff pull up, I'll drag a sled with 225 pounds on it. But like I don't do any high intensity activity anymore. Yeah, my only real form of cardio is hiking and I hike like I said quite a bit. Um, but it, it really varies with the seasons. In the summer I hike a ton, I walk a ton, I lift lighter weight. Now we're getting into winter and I'm like okay, I might get back to like lifting some heavy stuff again and I'm gonna hike less because of the weather. So it kind of goes like I have this seasonal pattern for movement.
Kim Rittberg (35:04):
I like the idea of no matter what you can fit in, don't make it all or nothing. Cuz I feel like this weekend I really want to exercise. I just like couldn't find the time and my kids were really wanting me and for as long as they're wanting me, I'm gonna try to be with them. And I just couldn't fit in like a run or a bike ride. And we did a dance party and I look up, I'm like, okay, was that, do we think that was 14 minutes of dancing? I'm gonna think about that. I did 14 minutes of cardio, you know, if you're really into it. That's so it does make me feel better. Just remembering something is better than nothing.
Melissa Urban (35:32):
Yeah. Yeah. I have a gen, I mean I like to just move throughout the day. So I'm standing right now, I would be on my treadmill except it's like a little bit, I have a little walking pad under my desk where during meetings I can just get a few extra steps in and it's not like, oh I need to get my steps in. It's like I just wanna generally, like I feel better when I'm moving a little bit. So playing with the dog in the backyard counts. Going for a short walk to get coffee down the block counts, playing with my son, whatever that looks like counts. Like all of that counts. Tidying organizing, those are some of my favorite ways to like get some extra movement in.
Kim Rittberg (36:03):
Ooh, I love a vigorous organization when you're
Melissa Urban (36:05):
S sweat. Me too. Yeah,
Kim Rittberg (36:06):
I'm really bad at it, but I do like it. <laugh>. All right. I am so excited that you're writing a book called The Book of Boundaries because I feel like everyone struggles with boundaries. I personally very much struggle with boundaries. Um, so in, in this book, what are some of your favorite tips that you recommend that you think are most applicable, applicable, especially to moms?
Melissa Urban (36:28):
So I think the fir you know, there are three steps to setting boundaries, right? Identify the need for a boundary set and hold, you know, set the boundary and then hold it. And I think there's almost like a prestep that I really encourage women especially and definitely moms to do, which is you have to create moments in your day pauses where you're actually checking in with yourself to go, what do I need? So often our day, especially as moms, is dictated by everyone else's needs. What does our kid need? What is our job asking for? What does our spouse need? What does the household need? And I think it can feel very reactive to us. Like we're constantly just putting out little fires all day long. And it's hard to know where you need a boundary if you don't know what your own needs are, where your own discomfort lies. So I like the idea of just creating moments throughout the day to check in with yourself and go, How am I feeling about this? What do I need in this moment? And like recognizing that your needs are just as valid and worthy as anybody else's. I think that's a really important missing step in the bigger conversation about boundaries.
Kim Rittberg (37:34):
And then what are some phrases like I, I looked at your social media and I listened to a few of the boundaries. I'm like, jot that down. Like I, I do feel like as much as people will, and I agree with this, there are a lot of negative things that could come from social media. But one of the things I feel like over the past few years I have been taking in those messages of saying no to more. And then honestly something that I really picked up from being online that's helped me so much say no to things. I had a friend of probably back when, back when I hosted parties, um, in my twenties, um, I had a friend of mine, a good, a good guy friend of mine and he just rcpd, no he didn't write, sorry, I can't come because of this, that and the other, which I would always do. I would always rcp no so sorry like I have a work event that night, I'm so sad to miss it. I'll catch the next one. Now this person did not feel the need to excuse it just can say no. And that stuck with me. I'm like, I can start saying no to things without an excuse. Wow, how empowering. Anyway, all to say I'm obsessed with these concept of boundaries and the scripts. What are some scripts you have that moms or women would find useful?
Melissa Urban (38:37):
I mean I love the example that you just gave because I think as women and as moms we have been taught that we have to have a very good reason in order to say no. And then that reason then has to be approved by somebody else before we can get out of it. And like that is not the case. So I'm very often like just channel your like mediocre white man and respond as they would respond. Which is just like, nope, can't make it. No thanks. Uh, so I love that story but I mean I think boundary scripts are, those scripts that I have in the book are really designed to help people figure out how to say what they wanna say. So there's a really common example. Your mother-in-law comes over without calling all the time, just feels like she can drop over whenever she wants.
Melissa Urban (39:18):
You know, really just like wants to see your grand baby isn't particularly helpful or expects you to drop everything and you're like, okay I, this is really stressing me out. It's making me anxious. It's resent making me resentful. I am now like feeling less good in our relationship but how do I say it? And I like to remind people that like to set the boundary, you have to actually set it so you can't just eye roll, you can't open the door and go, Oh okay Barb. Yeah I guess you can come in. That is not a boundary. You have to actually say it. So it could be as simple as hey we really need you to start calling before you come over. Please give us an hour notice. That's it. You don't have to explain why. You don't have to justify why you don't have to say it's really disruptive and we can't always, no, that is a perfectly reasonable request. Hey, please start calling before you come over. Give us about an hour's notice. Okay? And that could change the entire tenor of your relationship. You would be surprised how many times people set a boundary anticipating that there's gonna be so much pushback and so much drama and the person just goes, Oh okay, okay
Kim Rittberg (40:22):
So here's my question. In that example, I do think cuz I love the idea of that and then I'm like ugh. I think about saying that to someone in my family, which they wouldn't do that because I think people know don't do that to me. I'd be like, what are you doing here? Um, but uh, I think that people like to couch the excuse in niceness, especially women. I'm sorry Gen, I'm genderizing this. But um, like I think that the script I would have would be like, I love when you come by. I love that you're having such a good relationship with our grand, your grandchild. Um, my schedule is so bananas it would really help if you let us know in advance so we can make it work better. Is that good or is that too bend over backwards for that?
Melissa Urban (41:05):
Here's the problem with that. You say my schedule is so bananas right now. It would really be helpful if you called first just so that I can, and I say to you, don't worry about it. Tell you what, I know your schedule is bananas when I come over, you won't even know I'm here. You won't even know I'll be so quiet. I'll be so helpful. And now you're like, shit, I really need you to start calling. And you have given them a problem that they can now solve. And like now you don't need the boundary anymore. It is way more efficient and effective. And honestly it's kinder just to say, please start calling before you come by. Give us like an hour notice. Okay? That is a perfectly reasonable request. You do not need to justify it. They don't need to understand or even agree.
Melissa Urban (41:45):
They just need to say yes, I will respect this limit. Because if they do this very simple thing, it's not hard to pick up the phone. If they do this very simple thing for you, all of a sudden your relationship is so much more free, you have more trust, you have more respect. They know that when they come over you are gonna greet them happily, sly, ready for their visit. Not resentfully, not cranky, not trying to rush them out cause you are in the middle of something. Everybody's relationship gets better if they just respect this one limit that you have now communicated so clearly and kindly,
Kim Rittberg (42:17):
Here are two situations I think moms are faced with where I think boundaries would really help. So one is people asking to pick your brain or meet you for coffee. And the other is can you join this committee or can you come to this thing? What are, what are your, what are your tips for that?
Melissa Urban (42:32):
Okay, so I love the, can I pick your brain or can I meet you for coffee? Because I'm assuming that this isn't just a friendly like, hey, do you wanna get together and chat? It is like I am asking if I can like use your labor for a little while. Are you willing to donate some labor to me? So this is definitely never, sometimes it's a hard no if you in the moment simply don't have capacity and you know that even if it's a wonderful opportunity and they might be a great connection and you really like them and you wanna help them, but you don't have capacity, you cannot give them labor without taking something away from other things in your life that are mission critical. You have to just say no. Oh, I'm sorry I can't, I'm in a busy season right now and that's not something I can do.
Melissa Urban (43:10):
Sometimes when people ask me, I will say, That's incredibly vague. Can you give more specifics about what you're looking for here? Right? And then it is up to them to say, I would like to ask you about xyz. If they continue to be vague, hey, I would just love to know if you can give me some advice for starting my own business. There's like a 99% chance that I'm not gonna have capacity for that because that that conversation can go 16 different directions and go sideways. The best thing, the best thing I've ever received from somebody is from my friend Molly. She sent me a note about two years ago. She said, I would like to do a 15 minute consultation with you to talk about what I need to do to launch my new book. I would like to cover these three topics. It would be by telephone.
Melissa Urban (43:51):
I would call you at your convenience and I will donate a hundred dollars, um, of, to a charity of your choice as your consulting fee. Made it so easy for me to either say yes or no. So I think it's perfectly acceptable to ask for more details or information. It's perfectly acceptable just to say no, no, I'm sorry, I can't accommodate that. No, that isn't an area in which I feel comfortable sharing advice. Um, no, I don't have capacity. You know, my plate is as full as I like it right now and I'm not going to be able to, don't, you know, if you, if you really just don't wanna make the connection, it isn't like, oh I can't right now, let's try maybe again next week and hope they never email you again. You've gotta be really clear and you've gotta be really kind about it.
Melissa Urban (44:31):
Ask for the question about can you join my committee? This is one of my favorite just big picture boundary strategies. Never say yes automatically. Never, never. Doesn't matter what they're asking. Can you shop on this field trip? Do you wanna come to dinner on Friday? Can you join this committee? Thank you so much for thinking of me. Let me think about that. And you've taken an appropriate amount of time, right? You don't take a month to think about it. Ask some follow up questions. Oh the committee sounds interesting. What are the expectations in terms of participation? Is there a time expectation in terms of like, Oh, you'd like me to stick around for at least a year or can I just contribute when I'm able, Who are the other committee members? Because that might be something important to you. I like to make sure that my committee members are diverse but never say yes automatically. And if you are not able then it is just a no no. I'm sorry, that's not something. And I may maybe I wouldn't even say I'm sorry it's so natural to slip in and I'm sorry, but maybe it's just no, that's not something I have capacity for. No, that's not in my wheelhouse. No, that's not an area in which I have interest. Perfectly acceptable to say.
Kim Rittberg (45:35):
And also I think people say I'm sorry cuz they're used to it, but also couching it in kindness. I also think you can say, thank you so much for thinking of me. I'm so flattered I can't do this at this moment. Yeah. Yes. Period.
Melissa Urban (45:45):
That's a much better. Like I'm constantly interrupting my own. I'm sorry to be like, no, no, you don't have anything to be sorry for. Like it's an unlearning process for all of us.
Kim Rittberg (45:54):
I love, I think not automatically saying yes is something that took me, I swear to God, 30 years of my life to learn. I took a different job by responding too quickly. Someone's like, Oh you, this other person wants to do this job and you're doing this job. Do you wanna switch jobs with them? And I was like, Yeah, okay. I'm like, why didn't I say, let me think about it. Yeah. Uh, and I'll get back to you. It was fine. It ended up being fine. But I was, why did I react so quickly? And I gave myself a really big pat on the back last year. I was asked to join some committee for an organization that I like. I was busy and I was trying to scale down my commitments and I said, Thank you so much. You know, I love all the people that are involved. This is not something that really aligns with my schedule right now. Yeah. And they understood. I was like, maybe in, in a few years I'll have more availability, but it's not right now. And I really felt such a sense of growth and ownership over my time. I was like, You're a badass Kim. Yeah. You just said no to someone. And you know, I I, I really, it sounds so silly, like why would saying no be such a, a win, but it is a win? Cause I just took that time for myself. Yes,
Melissa Urban (47:01):
Yes. And I think another important point is that it's not either, yes, I will do exactly this thing you're asking of me to the scope that you are asking, or no, I cannot feel free to go, can I join this committee? You know, I can't join the committee and commit to being there for meetings every single Wednesday, but I could sit in once a month. I could take a look at your meeting notes and provide feedback at the end of every month. I could X, y, z. If you have a way to, if you want to show up, but you, you just need a different capacity or a different situation, feel free to offer that. And then they're free to say, No, that wouldn't be as valuable. Or No, that's not what we need. Or Yeah, we'll take what we can get. And now you're showing up in a way that works for both of you. And yeah, it's incredibly empowering.
Kim Rittberg (47:45):
I love that so much. I know we have like three more minutes, so if we can fit in three minutes. You are, you have built such an amazing thing with Whole 30. I am so beyond impressed and so are other, other business owners and just people in general obviously. Do you have top three tips for entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs?
Melissa Urban (48:05):
I mean, my first one always is pay yourself first. Always, always, always pay yourself first. If you are not taking care of your mental health, your sleep, your energy, your needs, your feelings, you are of no good to your business, to your customers, to your clients, to your community, to your family, to your friends. You gotta pay yourself first and resist this entrepreneurial like, hustle culture. I think, I don't think that we have to hustle 24 7 or we're gonna be outta the game. So that's kind of my first thing. The second thing I like to say, and this is a theme throughout the whole book, is like, remember that you can do it any way you want. You can do it any way you want just because this company that does similar things to what you do has this structure. Or just because they have weekly meetings or they have a home office, doesn't mean that you have to do those things. You can do it any way you want and if you're not doing it any way you want, you're kind of doing it wrong. If you're doing it based on other people's expectations or what you imagine a successful business would look like, but it doesn't work for you. I just like to remind people like you're in charge.
Kim Rittberg (49:04):
Adjust your yeah. In ideology and, and, and method and time commitment, whatever it is.
Melissa Urban (49:10):
Absolutely. So those are kind of my, I think my top two and those are really just foundational for any entrepreneurial practice.
Kim Rittberg (49:17):
Do we have a third just as like, odd numbers are so beautiful for tips.
Melissa Urban (49:20):
I know they are beautiful
Kim Rittberg (49:21):
<laugh>.
Melissa Urban (49:22):
Um, you know, I, I guess the last thing I will say is you have to model the kind of company culture that you're trying to create. So I think it's very easy as founders or CEOs to say, we value work life balance. Go take your vacation. But on my vacation, I'm sending emails and I'm like dialing into the zoom from Cabo because I'm really important and I have to go above and beyond. And employees look at what you do, not what you say. So if you want to create the kind of trusting, safe or respectful company culture that does respect healthy boundaries, you've gotta be the one to set them. And that might include sending some boundaries with yourself and save a draft or schedule it to send at 9:00 AM that next business day instead of on a Saturday. Cuz that's telling people, I'm saying, I don't want you to work weekends. Ah, but you got an email from the boss Saturday at nine o'clock.
Kim Rittberg (50:10):
Thank you so much for Melissa for taking the time. Here are some of the tips that I just loved fit in exercise. Whenever you can even, it's just for 10 minutes. Build your business, how it works for you. There is no one size fits all. Resist the pressure to do it all or have it all. Try to get some of that, that pressure off of you by having detailed granular conversations about workload with your partner. And Melissa's book is called The Book of Boundaries, End Resentment, Burnout and Anxiety and Reclaim Your Time, Energy, Health and Relationships. I love that this book is so needed at the end of the show. I love sharing the story of a real mom celebrating a win or telling something funny. This one is from Monique Meneses, who just launched the skincare line, Iotta Body.
Monique Meneses (50:58):
My daughter went to school and told her teachers and classmates that her mom and dad make bottles for work. She's seen it all through this startup. The house is forever a sea of chaos with bottles, packaging, fragrance testers. And she wants to be involved and have a say in the formulas we're making. She tests our serums, our body washes, um, our newest addition that's coming out in 2023. I love that she's getting a taste of entrepreneurship at the age of five, but she still says she wants to be a doctor when she grows up.
Kim Rittberg (51:33):
And if you wanna submit your own story, we'd love to feature you. Go to www.kimrittberg.com and don't forget to drop us feedback. We love hearing from you. Give us story ideas or just general positive reinforcement. <laugh>, thanks so much for listening.
Kim Rittberg (51:54):
Thank you so much for listening. We wanna hear from you. Tell us what topics you want us to cover and what questions you have for upcoming shows and experts. We will read everyone and we will use them. You can find us everywhere. Go to www.kimrittberg.com, scroll down to find the contact button, or you can DM me on Instagram at Kim Rittberg. Or you can leave your feedback right inside your review in the podcast app. Please follow the show in Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen and leave review in a five star rating. And don't forget to share it with people who will find it valuable. It's truly meant to be a resource. And this is Mom's Exit interview. I'm your host and executive producer Kim Rittberg. The show is produced by Henry Street Media. John Horowitz is our editor, and Aliza Friedlander is our producer and publicist.