EP. 3 / Gretchen Rubin on how to be a happy parent when you’re stressed, tips for parents to unwind and connect with their children and why she hates a vague complaint about ‘burnout’
SHOW NOTES:
Gretchen Rubin has spent her career learning and studying happiness, good habits and human nature - exactly the person to guide us! I am thrilled to bring you all her research and insights! She’s written The Happiness Project (which spent more than 2 years on top of the New York Times bestseller list!), Outer Order Inner Calm, The 4 Tendencies, Better Than Before and Happier at Home - she’s a best-selling author many times over and her books have sold 3.5 million copies! Gretchen hosts the podcast Happier and on Mom’s Exit Interview podcast gives us simple easy tips we can use right now to be happier, less stressed, and more present with our children. We also had a deeper conversation around what we expect out of work, whether we shouldn’t just quit our jobs on a dime, her dislike for the vague concept of ‘burnout’ and much much more. Also, Gretchen liked my point of view and even responded with ‘well said’... so I now framed that quote and it’s on my wall. Thanks to Gretchen for joining us!
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Takeaways:
Gretchen’s top 3 tips to feel happy when you’re stressed
a) Keep on top of your physical health - exercise and get off your phone before bed!
b) Deepen your relationships - book groups are ideal because you can maintain several relationships with 1 event and bow out when you’re too busy and return later
c) Have fun - don’t do ‘fake fun,’ (I love this phrase!), meaning don’t only participate in activities that your family wants to do or things that may be restorative but not actually fun. Recall your childhood and what used to spark joy, that can be walking, fishing, art, anything! Except Yoga, for the two of us, because Gretchen and I have in common that we don’t find yoga fun.
Gretchen’s easy tip to do today: “Apply the 1 Minute Rule”
TIP) Anything you can do without delay in less than a minute, Go ahead and do it. Hang up your coat instead of throwing it over a chair, put your dirty coffee cup to the kitchen instead of leaving it on your desk, file something in the proper folder instead of leaving it. She jokes her friend said “I cleaned my fridge and now I can change careers.”
Gretchen doesn’t like the vague complaint of ‘burn out’ and says you should dig deeper to find the root cause
Gretchen’s tips on being present with your kids even after a draining day:
TIP) We grownups need a transition! Just like our kids need that xylophone ‘ding’ to adjust to something, we also need that! So take 20 minutes to yourself before diving into time with your kids. (Cue me hiding in the corner of my apartment watching 90 Day Fiance before playing with my kids)
How to be present with your kids
TIP) Use your senses to check in and be connected. I love this tip, it’s something I’ve used personally already, I took a weaving class with my daughter and while I’m not a natural at building, when I start building Legos with my son it absolutely gets me out of mental work mode and into ‘mom mode.’
3 tips to get better sleep
a) Set an alarm to go to sleep
b) Get ready for bed early: Brush your teeth & change into pajamas. It sends a cue to your body
c) Exercise during the day: It helps you fall asleep faster and more deeply
d) Go outside in the morning light: Sun helps set your circadian rhythm
e) Keep your bedroom clutter-free: Maintain a place of restfulness and keep it chilly
Plus an embarrassing and super sweet parenting moment from Sonni Abatta of the We Gotta Talk Podcast.
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EPISODE LINKS:
Gretchen Rubin | Sonni Abatta Host of: http://wegottatalk.com
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Gretchen Rubin (00:02):
Relationships are a key to happiness.
Kim Rittberg (00:04):
It is a very special episode because the happiness expert, Gretchen Rubin is here. She has tips on how to be happier, even when you're stressed, whether you maybe shouldn't just quit your job on a dime and how to make big differences in small ways.
Gretchen Rubin (00:20):
Anything you can do without delay in less than a minute. Go ahead
Kim Rittberg (00:23):
And do it. And guess what? She's also answering your questions, including how to be present with your kids and how to find energy. After a long draining day of work and more,
Gretchen Rubin (00:33):
Give yourself a transition, treat yourself like a toddler. You don't expect a toddler to be yanked from one activity to the next, without a transition.
Kim Rittberg (00:42):
And we truly have a lot of fun.
Gretchen Rubin (00:44):
I feel like we can talk all day. We're interested in all the exact same thing.
Kim Rittberg (00:50):
Leave your lanyard and swipe card at the door. Welcome to mom's exit interview, a podcast for mom's seeking fulfillment and contentment outside the traditional nine to five, whether you're considering taking the leap or you're already mid-air, this podcast is for you. You'll meet moms who are consultants, entrepreneurs stay at home moms with side hustles and part-time workers across various industries and levels. Plus every episode will have experts with tips so you can turn your inspiration into action. I'm Kim Rittberg. I was a Netflix executive and former head of video at us weekly, and I'm a mom of two. I quit the corporate world and I've never looked back, but I'm still on this journey. So join me. We don't need a boss to give us permission or a promotion to lead the lives we want. If you like this episode, it would be awesome. If you could follow the show in your podcast app and leave a review in a five star rating, that way the show can reach even more people. And today we are focusing on happiness.
Kim Rittberg (02:07):
Sorry. I can't help myself today. We're talking to Gretchen Rubin. One of the world's most influential experts on happiness. I'm feeling happy. Just introducing this interview. Her book, the happiness project spent two years on the bestseller list, but she didn't stop there. She's also written outer order in her calm, the four tendencies better than before. And her books combined sold over three and a half million copies. And she has a podcast called happier with Gretchen Rubin all to say, she really knows what she's talking about. Gretchen is a mother of two herself and through her extensive research, she has incredible and novel tips. We, moms can apply to finding more happiness at home and at work, our listeners are time starved moms. So I'm gonna jump right in and ask you great. <laugh> let's do it right. I'm gonna jump right in. What are your top three tips to feel happy at a time when you're stressed?
Gretchen Rubin (03:03):
Well, one thing I would say is always think about your physical, uh, self, because your physical experience is always gonna color your emotional experience. And if you are exhausted, um, you are probably not gonna feel happy. Um, and so when people say they're feeling drained or overwhelmed, I'm my first question is always like, are you getting at least seven hours of sleep at night? And also are you getting some exercise? Like you do not need to train for the marathon, but just like, there's so much research showing that just movement is like the magical little of life. It, it energizes us. Um, sometimes people think they're too tired to exercise, but actually, unless you're really at the extremes exercise energizes you. And if you're having trouble sleeping, because like you can't fall asleep or you have, you're what you wake up with. Racing thoughts, people who get some exercise tend to fall asleep faster and sleep more deeply.
Gretchen Rubin (03:52):
So I would say, start with your body. I would also say, think about relationships because when all the research shows and ancient philosophers agree that relationships are a key to happiness, we need deep, intimate enduring bonds. And so anything that deepens your relationships or broaden your relationships is likely to make you happier. So whether that's like, Hey, my book group, we've been kind of languishing, but we're gonna ki I'm gonna like send around the email and get us all kick started again, because those relationships are important to me making a new friend, um, reconnecting with somebody, you know, across the country, you know, like taking the time to pick up the phone emotion, um, relationships make us happier. Um, and then the final thing I would say is like, try to have some fun. Um, a lot of adults are like, they're just looking for fun for the whole family.
Gretchen Rubin (04:38):
If you look at your calendar and there's really nothing that you actually look forward to that you're actually like, oh, this is really gonna be fun. And I don't mean like when people do fake fun where they're like, oh, yoga is so fun for me. And I'm like, but is it really fun? Because I think for some people it is. But I think a lot of times people say that things are fun when they actually are like, they make me feel good or they're like enriching or they make me happier in the long run. I'm talking about something that is like, you actually look forward to it. Like you can't wait for it. We all need some of that. So, and if you don't know what you find fun, a lot of adults have lost track. Think about what did you do for fun when you were 10 years old? Because a lot of times for grownups, um, we like doing what we like doing when we were 10 years old, just adjusted for being a, being an adult.
Kim Rittberg (05:27):
I particularly love those tips because I feel like they really speak to my heart. I've always loved doing art. So like as an adult, I had a jewelry business on the side. Yeah. And I joke that I feel like I have kids so that I can yeah. Enjoy doing arts and crafts again, cuz you know, there's not really time in the day, but like my daughter and I went to a weaving session and it was really fun for both of us. And I also don't think yoga is fun. I'm sorry, listeners. I just don't <laugh> what are some small things from your research that you've seen like small habits to add or small things you can put into your routine that can end up making a big difference?
Gretchen Rubin (06:00):
Well, one thing that people over and over tell, tell me makes a huge difference for them is the one minute rule. And I write about this in my little book, outer order, inner calm, um, what it is is just like anything you can do without delay in less than a minute, go ahead and do it. So if you can hang up your coat, instead of throwing it over a chair, if you can walk your dirty coffee cup to the kitchen, instead of leaving it on your desk, if you can file something in the proper folder, instead of just like tossing it out, if you can like go through the junk mail really quickly and get rid of it before you put the rest deal with the rest of the mail, because what this does is it gets rid of that kind of scum of clutter.
Gretchen Rubin (06:35):
That's on the surface of life and it can make us feel very weighed down. Like you sort of look around and you're like, oh my gosh. It's like, there's so many. And it's like, it doesn't take any time or effort to pick up the dog toys, but it's just like just seeing it all this junk everywhere. It's just very draining. And, and yet people are like, well, but I don't have a half an hour to like, you know, sit like, go about my, my house or my office and clean up. So the one minute rule is really nice for people who feel like they don't have any time, energy or money because you're just doing it as you go along. It's truly like anything that you, it is just almost costless to do and get over and over people say to me like, oh my gosh, I've been doing this for a week. And like, my life is transformed. A friend of mine said I finally cleaned out my fridge and now I know I can switch careers. And I'm like, I know how that feels.
Kim Rittberg (07:20):
<laugh> I remember reading along with your one minute rule, the idea when you're cleaning up your house a little bit at night to then in the morning, have a fresh table. I'm not particularly tidy, but I do find that going into my breakfast routine, making the kids breakfast and not having crumbs on the table. Yes. Not having papers on the table. It does feel like fresh start new day.
Gretchen Rubin (07:42):
Yes I do that. I spend 10 minutes sort of cleaning up everything, uh, not doing deep cleaning, but just sort of putting things away and it really does make it much easier the next day to get going, cuz you're not fighting your way through all the stuff that got out the night before. So I do think that's very helpful.
Kim Rittberg (07:59):
What about building relationships? You know, you said how it's so important to have good relationships brings happiness. What are some small ways that we can build upon relationships?
Gretchen Rubin (08:07):
Well, I'm a huge fan of joining or starting a group I'm like in so many groups that I'm starting a new group because, because the thing is, it's funny. Uh, and it seems kind of strange to talk about efficiency and friendship. But the thing is friendship takes time, uh, and energy. And if you are super busy, you do not have a lot of time and energy. And having a group makes it a lot more. It's a lot easier to make plans. Like you're like we're gonna meet once every month or we're gonna re meet once every six weeks. You can plan it out for a year in advance. If you wanna do that. And often with groups, it's like, you know, you'll invite a couple friends, I'll invite a couple friends. So I'm meeting your friends, you're meeting my friends. Now everybody's meeting each other.
Gretchen Rubin (08:47):
Now we have a social network that is a lot easier than like trying to one by one, identify new friends. And like, what do you do? Go out for coffee. It's like, it can be kind of awkward. Um, also if you have a group it's often formed around something that you find interesting. So that also makes it easier. Like being in a children's literature, reading group, a lot of the people I wouldn't really otherwise know, but we have something in common and something to talk about. And from there we become, but, but if you're busy, this is a way to make the work and time necessary to maintain friendship much easier. And then if you go through a period where like your life is just sort of bonkers and you can't go for six months, it's like, that's okay.
Kim Rittberg (09:29):
I like that. It's related to being busy. Cuz I think that's the point. Every parent feels like they actually can't find an hour and a half, every two weeks in their schedule. They really feel like they can't. But I like your idea of it's sort of a way to formalize it. Yeah. So it's, there's a standing monthly or biweekly meeting and then there's the accountability, right? So you're on the chain, you're on the invite. So you feel like you have to show up, maybe your other friends are gonna be there.
Gretchen Rubin (09:52):
Right? Exactly.
Kim Rittberg (09:55):
And this podcast is all about our relationships to work and how we can find or create the right balance for ourselves. So I ask Gretchen for her thoughts on work, burnout and ambition, happiness and more, what do you think about our society's relationship to work? You know, a lot of people are writing about burnout and overwork and you know, I would love your take on it.
Gretchen Rubin (10:20):
So here's what I would say about burnout. Um, and I feel this very strongly. So, and we talk about this all the time on the happier podcast, like, and it's one of my, like 12 personal commandments, which is to identify the problem. And that sounds very obvious. You're like, well of course I know what the problem is. Like how, why do I have to identify it? But something like burnout is not helpful. You say I feel burnout. Okay. What does that mean? Do you feel like I feel completely physically drained because I stay up late binge watching TV and I never get any exercise and I eat a lot of junk food. So I feel burned out. I feel burned out because I never see any of my colleagues face to face and I'm a really extroverted social person. And I feel like I'm not getting that energy that I need, that I used to get.
Gretchen Rubin (11:03):
I'm feeling burned out because we like a bunch of people got, let go. And I'm actually doing the job of two and a half people. I don't have the time or the skills to do the kind of work that's now being asked of me. I'm feeling burned out because I feel like in this day and age, my values have shifted and I wanna have a more mission driven career. And so I feel like something that was once fulfilling to me is no longer fulfilling. All these people could say that they're burned out. They would have extraordinarily different things to do about it. And so by kind of just vaguely saying you feel burned out, it doesn't actually help you figure out well, therefore what? Um, because I think it's very easy to just sort of feel like, oh, I have this general sense of uneasiness or, or, or feeling overwhelmed, but because I haven't really tried to understand what's not working. I don't see a solution. And I think sometimes people are like, well, I just need to quit my job. Well, it's like, okay, but maybe you don't need to quit your job because maybe it's just like one specific aspect of it is what is really kind of the grit, you know, the sand in your eye. And if you could solve that, then everything would change. And also because I, I pro probably a lot of your listeners are obligers, cuz a lot of people are obligers is there is something called obliger rebellion.
Kim Rittberg (12:17):
I'm gonna interrupt here so you can understand what an obliger is. So Gretchen has the four tendencies. It means that people fit into four groups, which distinguish how people tend to respond to expectations, both outer expectations, like a work deadline or a favor from a friend and inner expectations. Like you wanna run a marathon or you're trying to keep a new year's resolution. According to Gretchen, we have rebels, questioners, upholders, and obligers. And it's those obligers we are talking about right now they meet outer expectations, but struggle to meet expectations. They impose on themselves. And when obligers feel burnout, it can lead to what she calls a rebellion.
Gretchen Rubin (13:01):
Obliger rebellion is this phenomenon that comes in and blows up the situation to, to kind of, to save them like to protect them. But obliged rebellion is often very destructive cuz it's not in control. It's not something that the obliger is mindfully doing. It's something that kind of happens. They often use metaphors of explosion like a, like a volcano erupting. And it often doesn't make sense to the people around them because it's like, well, if you didn't wanna be on that committee, why did you say yes when I asked you if you would wanna do it? Why didn't you just say no? And once you understand that's what's going on, then you might have a very different view about what you would do to solve it or, or to prevent it even better.
Kim Rittberg (13:41):
I mean, what, what do you think about does our society or do we expect too much from work like that? We expect work to bring us this happiness. And in fact, if you get some fulfillment or accomplishment or value out of work, that's enough. Like we glorify people, you know, we've we really worship at the altar of entrepreneurs and, and people who've made millions of dollars in their twenties or thirties. Like is it that we have a, a, there's a friction between ambition and happiness?
Gretchen Rubin (14:12):
Well, that's a very interesting question. I remember an old boss of mine said that ambitious people could never be happy because the essence of ambition was never to be satisfied. And I, I don't, I don't think that's true. Um, I think it's very hard to make generalizations because I feel like that's kind of like saying, how do people feel about families? I mean, they feel a lot of different ways about families. Cause there's a lot of different families running around. I feel like people have a lot of different views of work and a lot of different desires for work. I think I, to me, it's always a question of like, well, what do I want? Um, what are my values? What's what are my interests? What's my temperament. And, and, and what is my season of life? I think you alluded to this earlier. Sometimes we're in a season of life where things shift, like maybe I can't be, I can't have a be in a book group I'm in a season of life where that just is not gonna happen, but that season of life will change.
Gretchen Rubin (15:00):
And then I could do it maybe in five years I can do it maybe next year I can do it. Um, but this is not a season of life where that's gonna work for me. And so I think sometimes it can be easier to be like, well, maybe I can do all these things, but not write this second. I can't do all of them all the time. Um, so I would say to people, we really, really get clear on what you want from work, because if you have immense expectations, then you should think about that and, and work for that. And if you're sort of like, Hey, you know what? I'm in a season of life where I really wanna do a good job, but I kind of wanna be in a place where like, I know my way around. I know all the shortcuts, everybody knows me.
Gretchen Rubin (15:38):
So I know how to, you know, if I need a little bit of slack, everybody, I'm like, I'm cool. And this isn't when I'm gunning for a promotion because I just kind of like wanna keep it simple. And then in two years, that's when I'm really gonna like lift my vision and like go for that next, that next, that next big challenge that could be, that could be great for some or somebody could be like, now is the time I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I've always wanted to start something I've always wanted to work for myself. Now is the time. This is the moment. How do I set myself up for success in kind of like every area of my life to help me achieve that aim
Kim Rittberg (16:11):
You had written happiness is a critical factor for work and work is a critical factor for happiness, right? Why is that? So, or what do you seeing? Well,
Gretchen Rubin (16:19):
Because, because we spend so much time at work, you know, it's a big part of if, if you're, if you're a person who, who works, um, it's, I mean, and everybody does work probably right. Or most people are doing some kind of work, um, whether it's paid or unpaid, it just, it takes a lot of our time. And so, um, if we are happy at work, we're just gonna be much happier. Generally.
Kim Rittberg (16:42):
I like, I, I like your view on it that everyone has their own point of view. Cuz I think the moms listening to this podcast are either looking at a change or in the middle of a change. But the important thing is figuring out what is a change you want? Like, yes, for me, I, I still wanna work. I run my own company, but I'm prioritizing taking my son to swim on Tuesdays. I'm prioritizing like taking my daughter to soccer and just being with her in that unstructured time. That's a thing I want for this season of my life. I don't know where I'll be in five years, but to do work, you know, one of my top priorities is getting more time with my kids. They're six and four, you know, they're little and they want me, um, and then reprioritizing doing work that has value and impact and that I can contribute, but it doesn't have to be as the vice president of this and that at the media company. So I think it's been helpful to really sit down and, and take my list. And every month say, am I meeting my goals? This is what works for me, Kim, not for some other person or not that other person on Instagram. So I like how you, I like how you framed it, that everyone has their own desires. What they're getting out of work, what they want in this season of their life.
Gretchen Rubin (17:51):
And I think one thing that I see happen a lot is that people will sort of set up a false choice because ambiguity is hard holding different opposing ideas in our minds is, is stressful. So people are like, look, I can be an, an intensive parent or I can work 110% at work. I have to choose. It's like really? Do you have to choose? Like, are those the only two options? Is, is it like, is there no way that you can be very president work and very present as a parent? Because sometimes things there is a choice and like you can't live in Los Angeles and New York city at the same time probably. Um, but there are a lot of things where, um, it is, it is a false choice to think that it's one or the other I can, you know, I can, um, look, I can have a clean clutter fleet free, orderly home, or I can come home every night and just relax after hard day and chill out. Are those the only two options <laugh> like, is that the only is that the only possibility? Um, and so I think sometimes when we set up these false choices, we sort of limit our vision of like how we could create, um, a circumstance that might, might satisfy us in more than one way. Um, just cuz it's sort of like it's, it's it's can be a little stressful to think about like, well how would I combine these two things? Um, but it's often it's often possible. It's not always possible, but, but it's often possible.
Kim Rittberg (19:13):
Yeah. And, and I agree with you. I, I don't think, oh, I'll never take a job again. I mean, I don't see that for me for this like chapter of my life, but it doesn't mean like when I was working full time, I wasn't a worse mom. I just, the, my time was split in different ways. I'm, I'm enjoying my structure of my week of my month of my year more now. But I don't look back and say, Ooh, I was, oh, I was such a bad mom cuz I was, you know, an intense executive at this company. I don't. So I agree with you. I think it's about the nuances. There's a lot of gray in between, uh, on and off.
Gretchen Rubin (19:45):
Yeah, exactly. Well said. Yeah,
Kim Rittberg (19:47):
I'm gonna put that on my, on my resume. Gretchen Gretchen Rubin said I'm smart. <laugh> we've been gathering questions from listeners, just like you. And we had Gretchen answer them about being present with your kids and about not feeling so burdened by housework and that never ending family to-do list. So as a part of this podcast, we surveyed moms across the country. And so these are some of the questions directly from them.
Gretchen Rubin (20:12):
So
Kim Rittberg (20:13):
Many, actually many women said they struggled with being present when they're with their kids. Do you have any advice for that?
Gretchen Rubin (20:20):
Mm, well, it's very funny because my next book is about the five senses because I had exactly this feeling myself, where I felt very like kind of detached and absent minded and like not really in the moment and the way that I tackled that was through my five senses. And I really recommend that. So like you might figure out ways to like really try to dial into a sense, um, as part of something. So maybe you wanna go with your children and go look at something together. That's a way to share an experience or maybe you wanna get some kinetic sand and like, or like do this thing with corn starch when you turn it into a non-Newtonian fluid, which is amazing. Google that it's, it's just wild. My
Kim Rittberg (21:00):
Daughter said the, my daughter said the word non-Newtonian fluid. I'm like, what is that? Oh,
Gretchen Rubin (21:04):
It's like quick stand it's like liquid and solid at the same time is wild. You can just do it, the corn starch in your cupboard and water. Um, and so I think these are ways to kind, and you were saying earlier, like you wanted to do a weaving glass with your daughter, but partly cuz that was fun for you. But also like there there's that texture, there's that touch? There's the, like the concreteness, like the physical satisfaction of it. So I think that's something that's really fun. Like make something with your hands or like go outside in nature and experience the weather or like, you know, play with the dog, like do something that gets your body there. And I think where our body goes often, like our minds follow. Whereas, you know, I think sometimes it's, it can be harder, um, to do more abstractly.
Kim Rittberg (21:49):
I love that advice from you. So I am of course, you know, a big believer in therapist therapy and self-awareness and all that. One of the tricks I have learned is mindfulness. And it's about using your senses. So using your fingers, uh, touching your fingers, touching your hands on your pants. I have been using the tip you gave about being present with your kids. Um, I, I love art, love arts and crafts. I'm not a super big Lego person and my son loves Legos. So I'm on a busy call. I hang up, he wants to play Legos and I find it really hard to sort of check in. But the tip you just gave, I have been doing that. I touched the Lego. I start building the Lego. Yeah. I start sort of feeling the toys around him cuz that's not an area that I'm naturally like excited to do. Whereas my daughter we're sitting down drawing, like I can jump right in and be present within a few minutes cuz I actually like drawing. But I think that that's amazing cuz I've, I've done mindfulness for myself. When I do media training, I give people mindfulness tips where, you know, get into your breathing, use your fingers as senses to make you feel present. But I hadn't really thought about it as much as a tool for parenting. So thank you.
Gretchen Rubin (22:55):
Well, and also, I mean I think just generally like once we have tools in our hands, we wanna create like if you pick up a musical instrument, if you pick up Mar magic markers, if you pick up clay, if you pick up Legos, like you want to start doing it. And, and so I think sometimes it's like with beautiful tools, um, that, or like, you know, in the kitchen, like buy some cool ingredients and then it makes you wanna put them to work. Um, so I think you're exactly right. Put the Lego. Don't wait to feel like playing Legos, sit down, put the Legos in your hand and then the desire to create something can come from that.
Kim Rittberg (23:31):
I can't wait to read that book. I'm very excited about that.
Gretchen Rubin (23:34):
You and me both. Yeah.
Kim Rittberg (23:35):
<laugh> it's gotta get written first, I guess. Got
Gretchen Rubin (23:37):
Yeah, it's written. It's got, it's gotta get polished. Let's say, okay, it's gotta get, it's gotta get tinkered with a lot, quite a bit.
Kim Rittberg (23:44):
A lot of moms said they feel they hold the anxiety of the household. So in addition to the actual tasks, the mental, the mental tasks of the tasks, any thoughts on that tips?
Gretchen Rubin (23:56):
Well, that's interesting because there's sort of two ideas conflated there. One is the idea of being anxious about something like, okay, I'm worried that this child isn't doing well in math. Do we need to do something about it? That's anxious. But then there's also just like mental planning, which isn't particularly anxiety producing, except that it's kind of annoying and draining, which is like, oh my gosh, tomorrow's Thursday. And that means that like I'm doing pickup, which means that like, if I'm gonna leave then that I need to bring the lunchbox with me. And that's about planning. So there's sort of two different problems. No for anxiety. One thing that works really well, although it sounds kind of funny is to schedule time to worry. If you feel like you just worry all the time, schedule time to worry. Maybe it's once a week. Maybe it's once a day pick the time.
Gretchen Rubin (24:36):
Like it's not right before bedtime, you know, big surprise and like sit down with a piece of paper in a pen or in front of your laptop or whatever and say, now I'm gonna worry and I'm gonna write down everything I'm worried about. And if there's things that I need to get done, I'm gonna put them on my list and now I'm just gonna worry, worry, worry. But if I'm, if it's not that time and I'm starting to worry, I'm gonna say to myself, don't worry about this right now because you've got your dedicated time to worry to come up. It sounds funny, but what it does is it like, it, it, you know that you will worry because people, they kind of want to worry. They feel like there's value and worry and there is value and worry. Um, so they know that it's gonna get done, but it doesn't seep into every corner of their life.
Gretchen Rubin (25:16):
If you stay awake in the middle of the night because of racing thoughts, again, research shows that if you write those things down, it, it lets the brain let go because the brain is like, we can't let you forget. You can't re you know, you gotta remember this. Like it keeps queuing you. If you write it down, the brain's like, okay, well somebody, this is written down. Like we, we can like calm down now. So you so write things down, um, that can work in terms of like the mental planning. This is a huge question, right? It it's, it's, it's a multifactor problem because it depends on, do you have a partner? Uh, how cooperative is your partner? Uh, you know, one thing that can work and this is especially true. If you're married to a rebel, like sometimes you just have to allow things not to get done. Like just don't do it. Like, and you obviously pick things where you don't care. But if you just say to somebody like, you know, we're gonna divvy up the jobs and like, it turns out that the way we've divvied it up, your job is to, uh, uh, load the dishwasher. Don't do it. Like, don't say like, oh, well you're not doing it to my standards at when I wanna do it. So I'm gonna do it. It's like, well, then you're gonna end up doing it. This is the problem of shared work.
Kim Rittberg (26:30):
One of our survey respondents asked for, uh, help tips and help on finding the energy to be with the kids after work, after a draining day of work.
Gretchen Rubin (26:40):
That is a great question. Okay. So part of it is like, you really need to get the sleep and the exercise. So that's like kind of these consistent habits that are gonna support your energy altogether. Another thing I would say is like, give yourself a transition. Like, you know, one of the things we talk about this on the happier podcast all the time is like, treat yourself like a toddler or treat yourself like a puppy, right? Like you don't expect a toddler to be yanked from one activity to the next, without a transition. We know like toddlers need warnings and they need, yeah, they need, they, they need to be able to like ease from one thing to another. They need to have a snack. They need to be able to like rest, take a little, have a little quiet time. So if you need, and it's very common.
Gretchen Rubin (27:24):
Somebody told me that with her husband, they called it book. Uh, bookshelf time. He would come into their house. He would sit in this one particular sofa and stare at the bookshelf for like 20 minutes. And then he would be ready to join them. But, and, and she was like, why he does that? I don't know. It's like, okay, that's fine. My husband always like, goes in, like he goes to change his clothes and then he just stays there for a while. I don't know what he is doing, but he just needs that time. And then he can be very present. And so I think that sometimes we expect ourselves to like walk through the door, throw our briefcase in the corner and like completely throw ourselves into family life. And often we're met with like, what about this? What about that? He said, she said, oh, can't I won't you, you said I could, you know, and you're like, you can't so maybe you need to say like, Hey, I need 20 minutes. And this is, and if you say it and you hold to it, other people adjust, this is a really interesting thing to know about habits. If you are consistent, even if with very, very idiosyncratic and even peculiar habits, if you do it consistently, people adjust,
Kim Rittberg (28:35):
Speaking of that, self-destructive, uh, self-destructive thing that we all do at night, which is like, we stay up because we feel like we didn't have any relaxing time, but then we get to sleep too late to feel good the next day. Is there a tip or a habit to form to get away from that?
Gretchen Rubin (28:50):
Oh, a thousand percent. I think about this all the time. Okay. So here's a bunch of tips. First of all, set an alarm to go to bed. Just like you have an alarm in the morning, you have an alarm to go to bed. Maybe you have a snooze alarm to remind you like, oh, it's time to start heading towards bed. It's it's 9:45. And I wanna be in bed at 10. Okay. Goes off at 9:45. I hit snooze. And that's like to get me going. A thing that I do that works really well is I get ready for bed. Well, before I plan to turn off the light, because what I realized I was doing is I was staying up late because I was too tired to get ready for bed. I like to watch my face and change. My clothes just felt like too much work.
Gretchen Rubin (29:23):
So I had to stay up clearly made no sense. So get ready. Also, when you get changed, when you BR, when you brush your teeth, that's often a cue, like no more snacking. Um, but it also like it starts cueing your body. Like, okay, now we're on the down slope, right? We're in the pajamas. Our face is washed. We're starting to move towards bed. So it begins to cue your body. The more that you can like have like three to four actions that you take in a row as part of your move to bedtime, the more that will also help your, your, your mind begin to think about, uh, shutting down. Now there's really obvious stuff like don't drink caffeine. Uh, don't use screens right before bed. Um, that, um, but another thing that works really well, and again, it's like, you gotta do this much earlier in the day is to exercise.
Gretchen Rubin (30:09):
Exercise really helps people fall asleep, faster and sleep more deeply. And so if you feel like you're not, you, you kind of have this restless energy and you can't sleep really try to exercise. And if you can, even if you're not exercising, try to go out in the morning light because this like all this research, like they're just uncovering more and more mysterious powers of the circadian rhythm. It does all these things to kind of regulate the body that we're only now beginning to understand. And that early morning light is what's really gonna help the circadian again, back to the toddler. You know, when you're trying to sleep, train a baby, they say, take your baby out in the early morning light. Cuz that gets your baby on the circadian rhythm. Yeah. Yeah. You need the same thing. You need that light in your face.
Gretchen Rubin (30:47):
Like, um, so if you even just like grab a cup of coffee and go outside on your back stoop and have like the morning sun in your face that also can help you to fall asleep. Um, keep your bedroom a little bit chilly. Um, if you have a lot of like clutter in your bedroom or a lot of reminders of things that you need to get done, get that stuff cleared out so that it is a restful restorative place. Um, and here's my final thing. I love to listen to a podcast if I'm having trouble sleeping and I pick something like my favorite, um, they're they're ones like sleep with me, which is like AB that's like meant to help people fall asleep. I listen to one that I love to listen to called in our time, which is like four academics talking about like historical or like philosophical things. It's really interesting, but it's like very calm and kind of monotone. And it's like being in a college lecture. Right? Like it's really interesting, but your eyes are closing <laugh>
Kim Rittberg (31:43):
<laugh>. Are there any habits or tips that are particularly helpful for parents?
Gretchen Rubin (31:49):
Well, one habit that I have to say, I was very surprised how effective it was is, um, and usually almost with all the habits that I talk about, it's a habit that you can do on your own. You do not have to wait for other people to cooperate or to buy in because in my experience, a lot of times they don't wanna cooperate and they don't wanna buy in. So it's gotta be things that you can do on your own. But with this, I did go to my family and I said, look, I feel like people are coming and going from the apartment and kind of nobody's paying attention. And I was seeing how they, and I also, I was also doing this. We're just sort of grunting out hollow or barely looking up from like, you know, a book or a newspaper or whatever.
Gretchen Rubin (32:29):
And it was like, let's really give each other a proper hello and goodbye. Every time we come and go and by proper hello and goodbye. That means like you come to the person physically and like you give them a hug or a kiss and you do not just like yell it out. Um, and kind of to my surprise, my whole family, uh, agreed to this and I am amazed at how much it increased, like the tender attentive atmosphere of my home. This is why people love dogs. Right? You come into your house, your dog is going bonkers. That dog is so happy to see you. I'm like, I don't wanna be less happy to see my daughter than my dog. Barnabee <laugh>, you know, and like, I'm not at that level of, you know, uh, uh, energy, but, and here's the thing, even with teenagers, like they want that attention.
Gretchen Rubin (33:18):
They want that hello and goodbye. Um, and it's takes a little bit of time and energy, but not a lot of time and energy. And it really, really gives you a lot of, um, a lot of happiness for the effort that you're putting in, because it really does give us that kind of, that tender atmosphere, you know, you want people to feel loved and like, and you care that they're coming and going, you know, that you want them to, you know, just to wish them a good day. Um, I feel like that's a really valuable habit.
Kim Rittberg (33:47):
That's fantastic. This is great. I'm still laughing because it's like 10 more minutes to parenting. Yeah. Like the idea of the childhood transitioned using for
Gretchen Rubin (33:57):
An adult. Yes. Right? No. Do you know the talking about picture books? 10 minutes to bedtime? One of the all time greatest, uh, uh, of, uh, uh, picture books, but you're right. It should be 10 minutes to 10 minutes to parenting. Oh, that's hilarious.
Kim Rittberg (34:12):
Like, right. It's like 10 more minutes til parenting.
Gretchen Rubin (34:15):
Yes. Oh my gosh. That's hilarious. You should do a parity book. I would buy that book. Yes.
Kim Rittberg (34:19):
Okay. We're doing it.
Gretchen Rubin (34:20):
We're doing it right. You know,
Kim Rittberg (34:22):
It's like more minutes til parenting and it's how we prep ourselves. I'm like, I'm actually writing this down. It's gonna on page. It's gonna go on page seven of my a hundred page. Google doc. It's
Gretchen Rubin (34:30):
I think, oh, there you go. People all got one <laugh>
Kim Rittberg (34:33):
This is gonna happen. I actually really like this. Thank you. Thank you so much. So such an excellent conversation. I'm so appreciative.
Gretchen Rubin (34:39):
Oh no, it was so fun. I feel like we could talk all day. We're interested in all the exact same things. So that was super fun.
Kim Rittberg (34:46):
What an incredibly fun and insightful chat we had, we dug into so much. Here are a few of my favorite takeaways from the interview with Gretchen top three tips, to be happier when you're stressed, remember relationships are at the core of happiness. So sign up for that book group right now, I may even return to mine. It's been about 10 years, but <laugh> health and fun are the other most important things. So get a good night's sleep. And remember back to the activities you used to love and revisit those one quick tip on a small thing that can make a big difference. Apply the one minute rule. Do anything you can. That takes less than a minute throughout some junk mail, hang up your coat. But Gretchen says it adds up to mental harmony. Her tip to be present with your kids is tap into your senses, throw a ball, grab some Legos.
Kim Rittberg (35:31):
And my personal favorite tip. Next time I need to engage with my kids. After a long draining Workday, I'll be hold up in the corner of my bedroom, catching up on a little bit of 90 day fiance. What about you? Let us know, drop us a line about which tip you plan to use at home. Yuki me on Instagram at Kim Burg, or email us through kimrittberg.com and a big thank you to Gretchen Rubin who gave us a lot of her time. All of her info is at gretchenruben.com and her podcast is called happier with Gretchen Ruben. I love ending the show with a funny story. This one is avery sweet it's by sunny Abatta, who is the host of the, we gotta talk podcast.
Sonni Abatta:
This just happened last night. And it's just probably the most recent thing that I can think of.
Sonni Abatta (36:59):
But, um, my son has had like some anxiety about, you know, he's, he's been sick for the past couple of days and he's like, don't wanna go back to school. And he just wants to stay at home and feel better. So he was like anxious about going back to school today. And I, I spoke with him last night and he's just, he's a real deep thinker like me. It's just, it's a lot to like, he's gotta understand everything before he does it. Right. He's not gonna jump into the pool. He needs to know how deep is it? How cool is that water? How long am I gonna be swimming? So he's just like me. So anyhow, um, I'm talking him through this stuff and he's really like taking it in. He's like, okay. He's like, thank you. And he looks at me with these just most gorgeous, big Hazel eyes. And he goes, oh mom, I just, I don't know what I would do without you. And he like leaned in and gave me a, and I was like, oh my God, I just was like crying immediately. So yeah, that was sweet. That was like, okay, I guess I'm doing it right once in a while with them. Just a sweet little comment.
Kim Rittberg (37:57):
Aw, that is so sweet. If you enjoyed this show, please follow the show, leave a review. And of course, a five star rating, only five stars and share it with people who will find it valuable because it's really meant to be a resource. I also love getting feedback on what resonated with you. You can drop that feedback at kimrittberg.com or directly in the apple podcast rating area. This is Mom’s Exit Interview and your host and executive producer Kim Berg. The show is produced by Henry street, media edited by John Haitz and our producer and publicist is Aliza Friedlander, check out www.kimrittberg.com to get our newsletter and for additional resources. And you can follow me on Instagram at Kim Rittberg.