EP. 5 / Interested in quitting your job to be a stay-at-home mom? Or downshifting? How to make a smooth transition with Mother Untitled’s Neha Ruch and Dr. Lisa Damour
SHOW NOTES:
LEAN IN! Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg’s movement told us women to lean in to corporate life. But should all moms ‘lean in’? What about moms who want to ‘lean in’ to family life? We’re talking about how to be comfortable in that transitional period or the ‘gray area’ between being home and working with Neha Ruch, founder of Mother Untitled. Neha discusses the judgment she experienced as she became a stay-at-home mom after getting her MBA from Stanford (people implied she “wasted” her business school degree!), discuss whether Lean In had unintended harmful consequences, and offers tips on how to separate your self-worth from your income, plus how to answer that thorny question ‘what do you do?’ when you’re not really sure! And Dr Lisa Damour, PhD, bestselling author and co-host of the Ask Lisa, Psychology of Parenting podcast has tips on how to be content and confident in the face of transition. Plus a hilarious story involving a nose job, her daughter and a teacher from Keri Setaro of the Momtourage podcast.
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Takeaways:
Kim’s take on the Lean In movement and how it impacted her and her peers. ‘Lean In’ was an incredibly helpful book in my career, it reminded me to ask for what I deserved. It also reminded me of the existing gender biases and gave me comfort and advice. But as I grew into the next stage of life, one with kids, I realized more than I owed it to any corporate office, I owed it to myself to consider the variety of options. I owed it to myself to ask how much do I want to ‘lean in’? Do I want to ‘lean in’ at all?
Neha Ruch of Mother Untitled’s tips on being in transition when people ask ‘What do you do?’ -- “Use the framework, “This is what I am doing ‘right now’.”
Neha believes it’s important to note it’s a ‘privilege’ to choose - between being a stay-at-home mother or a mother who works outside the home.
Neha talks about the pressure after getting an MBA from Stanford and people implying she ‘wasted’ her business school degree when she decided to be a stay-at-home mom. Neha says the book was like the ‘rallying cry’ at her business school graduation, but clarity was the key to ignoring the judgment. “I felt very clear that I had finally found something I've been looking for which was just like a peace and a confidence.”
Dr Lisa Damour’s advice: “We could just get over ourselves…and really get past that idea that we're only as good as our profession. Not paid doesn't mean it's not valuable and in fact, some of the most valuable work we can do doesn't come with a paycheck.”
Dr Lisa Damour on how to avoid comparing yourself to others: “Can you be your own yardstick and have that be the measure of ‘success’?”
Momtourage’s Keri Setaro & her school dropoff story - hint: it involves a nose job
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EPISODE LINKS:
GUESTS:
Neha Ruch & Mother Untitled
Dr Lisa Damour & Ask Lisa, the Psychology of Parenting podcast
Keri Setaro & Momtourage Podcast
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Kimberly Rittberg (00:03):
Today, we're focusing on moms choosing to lean out of the office and lean into the home.
Neha Ruch (00:09):
I get to be mostly at home. Other people have a lot to say insinuation that in some way, I've wasted my business school degree,
Kimberly Rittberg (00:15):
Our guest Neha, who has an MBA from Stanford is passionate about welcoming in a different view of ambition and feminism and releasing the judgment around being a stay at home. Mom, we'll talk about Cheryl. Sand's lean in movement and dig into how to separate your self worth from your income and how to exist peacefully in the gray area between working intensely and staying at home. Plus Dr. Lisa co-host of the psychology of parenting podcast joins us with tangible tips on how to be content and how to figure out what you really want and need.
Dr. Lisa Damour, PhD (00:47):
First of all, we could just get over ourselves and we could just say, well, what I do is I'm committing myself right now, full time to family life,
Kimberly Rittberg (00:58):
Leave your lanyard and swipe card at the door. Welcome to mom's exit interview, a podcast for moms seeking fulfillment and contentment outside the traditional nine to five, whether you're considering taking the leap or you're already midair. This podcast is for you. You'll meet moms who are consultants, entrepreneurs stay at home moms side hustles and part-time workers across various industries and levels. Plus every episode will have experts with tips so you can turn your inspiration into action. I'm Kim Rittburg. I was a Netflix executive and former head of video at us weekly, and I'm a mom of two. I quit the corporate world and I've never looked back, but I'm still on this journey. So join me. We don't need a boss to give us permission or a promotion to lead the lives we want. Please follow mom's exit interview and leave a five star rating. It really helps the show and leave in the comments. Any topic or guest ideas you have. Let's talk about lean in whether you read this book or not. You have likely been impacted by the movement in some way, lean in was a bestselling book and honestly became a nationwide movement. It was written by Facebook, COO Cheryl Sandberg. It was published in 2013 when my peers and I were grinding away working our way up the corporate ladders.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
This her book is called lean in women work and the will to leave. Well. They say you can't have it all, but Cheryl Sandberg comes awfully closed. And yet she wants even more specifically women to join her in the professional stratosphere. She calls it leaning in gunning for the corner office, not the cubicle
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Sandberg proposes a reason for why there are so few women at the top. The problem she says might just be women themselves.
Kimberly Rittberg (02:55):
The books message really caught on I'm gonna oversimplify it. But broadly it says that with just 14% of companies having female executives, it was written to help women pave their way to the top reminding women. It is okay to be ambitious and it offered tips for them to get executive roles. I devoured this book, I even hosted my own lean-in book group in my New York city apartment. I invited other like-minded ambitious women. We were committed to our career and to fighting the patriarchy. We had a robust debate with wine. Obviously this book truly spoke to me. I actually just reread the notes I took at that time. And Cheryl advises how to negotiate. She reminds women, we are treated differently. So we should adjust our behavior to that. Cheryl also encouraged women not to step off the track until you have to. And if you're a mom, not to only consider just the short term benefits and costs of daycare, but to view the overall long term earning power that you might lose with one step off the track.
Kimberly Rittberg (04:00):
But now that I have two kids, I think, man, why are we so harsh on people who are not leaning in the ones who are leaning out or leaning sideways? Why do we care about individual choices so much? Yes, I wanna be clear. I still agree with some of the lessons in the book. There is a gross gender gap and I value the tips on standing up for yourself and being okay with not being liked in the office all the time. And it was very helpful for me in my career, but it was not until I was a mom that I realized it's okay to not want to lean in. And on that note today, you'll hear from Naja Rouge, she founded the platform mother untitled for ambitious women, leaning into family life Naja got her MBA from Stanford, and she talks about judgment around her decision to be a stay-at-home mom with people implying, she wasted her business degree. We discussed the negatives surrounding the powerful lean in movement. The importance of separating your worth from your income, how to tackle the age old question. What do you do when you're in transition plus how to exist in the gray area between stay at home and full-time work. Our chat starts with her time at Zola, a modern take on the wedding registry and her decision to downshift, to consulting two days a week. Tell me a little bit about what led up to that.
Neha Ruch (05:28):
It was, you know, I, I think when I had bohi, I, that was 2016, I just had a very, um, clear, I felt very clear that I had finally found something I'd been looking for, which was just like a piece and a confidence. And I think I, it was the moment that compelled me to just say, you know what, let's take a minute, let's take a beat and reevaluate. Um, I found not that early motherhood is all roses, but I found a lot of that inner contentment. I'd probably been looking for for a while. So I let myself just soak into it for a bit. And then I, um, downshifted into, into consulting, which was, which was a good fit for that moment. I, um, was lucky enough because of that work at Ola in content, in editorial, I was meeting some really great brands and businesses, and I was lucky to start to afford relationships in New York where they were saying, Hey, why don't you come consult?
Neha Ruch (06:29):
Um, we'd love you to come on. So I was starting to see that path. And, um, one of the companies in particular was a company called carat and cake, which was a, it's a, uh, editorial hybrid editorial commerce platform for high end wedding, uh, vendors. And, um, she invited me in to head their brand in a consulting capacity. I had some other clients in the works. And so I said like, why don't I take a, um, why don't I try this for a little while? It'll, um, start to give me some room to explore what that could look like and lay the groundwork for a situation that might feel right for me once I have kids, but I returned to that client, um, two days a week about when bohi was somewhere between five and six months. And I think it was a nice middle ground from a financial perspective, from a creative perspective. It, it let me practice that scale of separating for a period of time. And two days felt like a good rhythm in that moment.
Kimberly Rittberg (07:38):
Okay. So you're at, you're at Zola before you have your first child, then you switch to consulting, it's going pretty well. And then, then you're doing two days a week. And so for how long did you do two days a week? And at what point were you like even two days a week? I don't wanna do this. This still doesn't feel right.
Neha Ruch (07:55):
You know, I remained at two days a week with carrots for about a year when I said, like, if I'm going to be taking those two days, I really want to be able to allocate it towards something I'm really passionate about. Um, so it was more of a reevaluation around how to spend that time versus around the specific time constraint. So I stayed, I basically shifted those two days. Bohi was about at that point, like a year, year and a half when I shifted those two days away from consulting and I reallocated it toward building mother untitled,
Kimberly Rittberg (08:29):
You have all of these amazing accolades, good schools, good jobs. How did it feel to say I'm gonna step away from this five day, week job and shifted to two days a week consulting? What was the hardest part about that decision? What, what were you feeling at the time?
Neha Ruch (08:44):
You know, I think I felt really clear. I felt clear, which was a superpower in that shift because I think when you make that shift, if you feel confident in your own story, then no matter what other people say, you can move through it. That said other people had a lot to say. Um, they just do. And, um, I think because of the timing, because I had graduated Stanford just two years before, or less than that, I think I was fresh off the heels of like high expectations on what was gonna come next. And so I heard from family, I heard from friends really, are you sure you want, you're making the right choice? You know, you have a great setup right now. Like, you know, there's just a lot of questioning. I think, I think the most challenging thing was the like, um, insinuation that in some way I'd wasted my business school degree, which like some people articulated much more directly.
Neha Ruch (09:43):
Um, and I think that, that it, you know, I, as I said, I felt clear that it was not a waste if it actually felt like I'd earned that thing, it let me be very clear and confident at this. And so like money, well spent time well spent, but you know, not everyone sat the same way. And I think that that navigating that cultivating the strength to hear it and move past it was, you know, the biggest friction point. I also think financially, um, you know, I think my husband and I had always been equals in terms of contribution to the household. And I, you know, the consulting opportunity consulting if you constructed the right way can actually end up being quite lucrative in and of itself. But it definitely still took, you know, a hit at least momentarily. I, and it certainly did when I shifted into my own business. And I think, um, I think navigating those conversations around what does this mean for our relationship, uh, was not a friction point, but a reality.
Kimberly Rittberg (10:53):
So many of what you just so many of the things you just said resonated so much with me personally. Um, I, you were just saying about what does this mean for our relationship? What did it end up meaning for your relationship? I know a lot of people, you know, not necessarily that money equals power, but when you're a woman and you bring in money, it equals more choices. It's slightly a different dynamic. It's, it's totally different for everyone, but it does money has a lot of weight to it.
Neha Ruch (11:16):
It does, I think. And it also, I think it was a challenge to my own ego. You know, I think that that was like separating my own worth from that was the first step. Right. Because I think I it's so easy as a woman because we're, so em, we're empath. We can sort of, we put ourselves in other people's shoes, we come up with amazing stories. That's what makes us so great. However, you come up with a story of like what your husband's thinking or your partner's thinking. And so I had a very long story about what my partner was probably thinking because I, you know, I was bringing an T percent less than I was before turns out he was most certainly wasn't thinking that, but I was very sensitive to any MIS like slips in verbiage. So I'll give you an example. I remember him saying something about luxury, the luxury of, of choice.
Neha Ruch (12:11):
And now I talk about that often on my platform, as, you know, as the privilege, right. The privilege to choose and, um, but luxury and the concept of, um, felt so icky at that moment. And I remember the hypersensitivity to that, and then the storyline that followed, and I think it, in terms of a dynamic shift, it meant we needed to remet ourselves in, in this new role. I think as parents, as you know, you like transition anyways from like as a couple pre-kids post kids. So now we were remeet ourselves. Like he always knew me as like a specific type of person in the workplace. So I was very conscious of how we engaged in conversations, what I shared, what I brought to the table, what, you know, and I, and I think it took more, so me getting comfortable with that new dynamic versus him. Um, and so, you know, we talk a lot about like owning your own story. It took like me a beat of just getting comfortable with this is like where I am. And like I'm loved no matter what,
Kimberly Rittberg (13:16):
How would you describe the stage you're in now? Are you a stay-at-home mom? Are you a working mom? What would you call yourself?
Neha Ruch (13:23):
I it's, you know, we always like wrestle with this, but I'm, I would say I'm mostly at home while running my business alongside
Kimberly Rittberg (13:33):
When you meet people in New York city, which is like, I feel like the Mecca of all of this. If you could put all of these conversations and squish together and put, put them under pressure in New York city, obviously the first question is, hi I'm so, and so what do you do?
Neha Ruch (13:49):
How do you answer that? Yeah, I usually say right now, so I start with like, in this moment in time, because by the way, it'll change next year or when my kids are like in full-time school right now, I, I get to be mostly at home. So it's like that empowered choice of like, I get to be mostly at home and I run a platform called mother untitled period. And like, I'll be honest with you the first time I did that, I'll never, I was at the so house and this woman who was like very chic, which was just very chic and she <laugh>, and I just were vomited all over her with like these long explanation of my choices. And I, it was then that I was like, I am never gonna be in that scenario again. That was when I realized, like, if I'm having trouble with this, then like this must be a universal, universal situation.
Kimberly Rittberg (14:47):
Okay. I wanna talk about lean in by Cheryl Sandberg. I hosted a book group, wine crackers. We were in my downtown apartment, a bunch of women, really smart, ambitious women. And this was two years before I had my kids. And when I hosted that book group, it was maybe six years before I was like, I'm gonna work for myself. And I'm definitely not working for a company for a while, not forever, but for a while. Um, I'd love to hear what you, what your thoughts are around lean in. I know that was, I think that was the time you were in business school. Talk to me about this.
Neha Ruch (15:25):
Yeah. So lean in was like the rallying cry at my business school graduation, right? I mean, Cheryl is obviously from Palo Alto, she's beloved by the community. She should be, she's done so much incredible work. And I think it was, um, the pinnacle really of the feminist movement of getting women to be respected for their identities outside of the home, which was incredible. And that was such a big movement that started, you know, sort of in the 1970s. And then, um, I, meanwhile, so then graduated with that book as the like poster child, you know, that was, that was sort of the guiding light for the women, like graduating in my class. And it, it didn't something about it. I think the, the sort of dogmatism around, like, there's only one way to do this. And if you are contemplating, there was a section. If you are even contemplating how to set up your life best for family, you're, you're doing a disservice to women and, and all the women who came before you, right.
Neha Ruch (16:26):
It was, it was basically, there was a very static view on what ambition was. And, um, meanwhile, I was sensing my own feelings around ambition evolve, um, even pre-kids, you know, and I think it was because I was reevaluating purpose. I was reevaluating how I wanted to show up in the workplace, what I wanted, how I wanted it to fit into my identity. And so I was already feeling that and feeling that as a response, but I didn't really quite understand why. Um, and then when I made my own choice to downshift, I think a lot of the stigmas and cultural pushback that I felt was often linked back to. But what about, what about this incredible movement? Like, you know, and, and, and meanwhile, in the reality of my day to day, especially in those, like I talked about, you know, the, I had two days outta the home, but for the remainder of this time, I was meeting these like incredible women.
Neha Ruch (17:27):
Um, now maybe that was the nature of where I was in New York and it's a creative area. And, but I was meeting these, you know, at playgroup and on the playgrounds, all these women who are very well educated, very ambitious, very thoughtful, very modern. And they were all making their own thoughtful choices. And it was, it was so multi hyphenated. It was so dynamic of the new woman who was saying, I wanna focus on family for a minute or for a season or for a chapter and, or they were exploring something else that worked better for them. Um, and I felt like, okay, there's now there's this entire group of women who are saying like, I wanna lean into family and that's gonna be ambitious. And it doesn't make me less ambitious. And that was really, for me, the catalyst of saying like, there needs to be another space to hold room for this group of women and make sure they still feel empowered and confident because lean in was loud and in a powerful way, I think it was really powerful and impactful for a generation of women, but equally we needed to make some space for the other, other choices that didn't quite fit in that mold.
Kimberly Rittberg (18:36):
And do you feel like it is feminist to say, I want to make this choice and like, like we've agreed upon it is a privilege to have choice. It is a privilege to have any choices. Um, but I mean, I feel like there's this whole conversation around like feminism and it means one thing, but like feminism is having opportunity and taking them and being control of your own narrative, right?
Neha Ruch (18:57):
Yes. 100%. And I would, I would add to that. I think feminism is trusting yourself and that story to make the right choice for you and your family right now. And by the way, trust the culture and the society to then, you know, let it be a long game. If you date back to the seventies and the reason why women have to be so creative power chasm, essentially, right? Like they to be respected out of the home, they had to create a very strong portrait of the traditional working mother working woman. And they had to create like distance themselves a little bit from the women at home. And so what we did was we, we created a really, we kept going with this image of the traditional working woman and we left the woman who chose to stay home back in the 1950s. But meanwhile, that caricature has evolved in part because of technol we're operating in such a different time, right?
Neha Ruch (19:58):
Like technology allows, first of all, women don't have children till much later. So you have a 10 average of a 10 to 11 year career in advance, depending on what coast you live on. And you're, so you have, um, a career and expertise to draw from, to translate into different capacities. The flex work opportunity board because of technology has evolved in such a significant way. And, um, and so we can't, you know, we can't still have the same construct around feminism or around ambition or around stay at home working models as we did 30, 40, I guess that's 50
Kimberly Rittberg (20:39):
Years ago. It's funny having myself worked in, you know, journalism and marketing, the truth is really clear pictures and really clear selling points is what people can process. So you have, like you said, a caricature because nuances are hard to sort of sell. They're hard to communicate. So I think that we're living more nuanced lives today. And I think many people like you are pushing for more understanding of what our nuanced lives look like. Um, but you're right. It's, it's that it's easy to say instead of this, we're doing this, so we're on this end of the spectrum, but we're going to this end of the spectrum. And the truth is there's so much in the middle. So you talk a lot about the gray area. What is that?
Neha Ruch (21:21):
So it is, I think, such an opportunity for women and going back to the feminist conversation, I think we, by claiming the blurry edges between these sort of antiquated notions of stay at home and working mother, we allow women or anyone really, but let's focus on women for this conversation to more fluidly navigate between, um, between the, the balance between work and family more, um, smoothly. And I think when we, the great area that we talk about is anything from consulting to entrepreneurship, to, um, volunteering to personal growth, alongside taking a full pause to saying, I'm gonna take a full pause in my career, and I'm gonna hold a little bit of room to, you know, take a masterclass in this to give myself room to explore what comes next to, um, meet with a coach to help me get more clear on my goals down the line.
Neha Ruch (22:25):
It's this vast in between space that allows women, the opportunity to dial up and dial down their work and find the right place that works for them and their families in that moment in time there's career pauses and shifts, right? And a pause is not permanent. A shift is not permanent. I think one of the gifts to women in this chapter is to say whatever you're choosing right now, you can reevaluate next week. You can reevaluate in a year. And I think when we create this fixed and finite view, um, in a label as opposed to leaving it, um, more fluid, we trap women in that role and they trap themselves in that wall. And I think words do matter. So saying I'm in the, in between right now, I'm, you know, I'm taking a pause and I'm, I'm exploring, or I'm in the, in between I'm, um, consulting two days a week, but I'm mostly at home. You know, whatever that range looks like. It leaves more wiggle room for individuals to make the right choice for them right now. And trust that they're not going to get as penalized on the other side.
Kimberly Rittberg (23:31):
So tell me, what is mother untitled?
Neha Ruch (23:33):
So mother entitled is a platform for women in their career PO either preparing to pause their career in their career pause or shifting into flexible work alongside. And in that, in the thick of that gray area is to help women feel more confident, more clear as well as to provide opportunities to spark creativity and personal growth.
Kimberly Rittberg (23:54):
So what are your tips for women in the gray area? They're either leaving their job or they left their job, or they're considering what, what's your advice for them,
Neha Ruch (24:02):
Allowing yourself the opportunity to say right now and constantly reaffirm that to yourself is a very powerful thing because it, you know, it feels less fixed and finite. Um, I think that the mental exercise to, um, figuring out what you're focusing on right now saying this is a priority for me right now, and this is what I'm actively saying. I'm gonna let not focus on right now. It, it lets you embrace what you're gonna gain. You know, if you can say, I'm gonna focus right now on the flexibility and the presence for my family, and I'm gonna let go a little bit of that, that focus on moving up that ladder, making that, going into something with a clearer and conscious view of what you're choosing is just such an empowering exercise. And I really encourage everyone. We have a clarity guide on, on the site and I really encourage, um, women to do that exercise by the way, not just when they're at that transition point, but when they're at the series of many transitions that are gonna come
Kimberly Rittberg (25:05):
Up and I would say also, yes, yes. And that I find I'm trying to protect my time and my family and making sure I'm still saving room for them. Like I have a very active company, but I am trying to not overburden myself with too many projects and be overcommitted because then why did I do this? Like, what was the point of leaving an intense prestigious, well paying media career to do this for myself. And then I'm just sort of saddling myself with more work and, and saying, it's for networking and this and that. So to your point about thinking about this, doesn't have to be forever, but also being true to what do I want in this moment right now, which I love is, is the idea of like really checking yourself, does this align to my current priorities? Um, so I think I, I, I love what you're saying about, you know, this is a moment it's like a season or a chapter. The chapter could be a month or it could be five years or it could be 10 years, but that's okay. Um, anyway, what are your top priorities in this moment in time?
Neha Ruch (26:09):
Oh, love that question. So, um, <affirmative> presence and not just presence, but a peaceful whole presence for my family is, is huge. Um, and that continues to be my north star. It's the filter for every decision I make from there impact act.
Kimberly Rittberg (26:33):
Are you happy?
Neha Ruch (26:35):
I am. But it does take, um, a very conscious effort to make sure that I always have life in perspective. I am living the life that I wanted to be living. And I feel very like proud of, of, of the person I've grown into in the last six years.
Kimberly Rittberg (26:57):
Well, that feels like the perfect place to end the interview. <laugh> okay.
Dr. Lisa Damour, PhD (27:00):
Yes.
Kimberly Rittberg (27:02):
Ne ha's tips for moms interested in taking a pause are to think about reframing it as a choice for right now. And her website has a script on how to answer, what do you do? You can get more information at motheruntitled.com or follow them on Instagram.
Kimberly Rittberg (27:22):
I'm excited to bring in Dr. Lisa Damour. She is a Yale educated clinical psychologist and New York times bestselling author. She also cohosts the podcast, the psychology of parenting, and she's going to discuss our relationship to paid work and how to exist in the gray area with contentment and confidence. What's a helpful way for how to exist in the gray space. You're sort of used to leading this life of, of working full time, studying full time, maybe 10 years or so in the workforce. And now you're choosing to be home and spend time with your children. Is there a helpful framework, um, to think about that, to be comfortable and confident in, in this country where the first question we ask is what do
Dr. Lisa Damour, PhD (28:02):
You do? Mm mm. So first of all, we could just get over ourselves and we could just say, well, what I do is I'm, I'm committing myself right now, full time to family life and, and really get past that idea that we're only as good as our profession. That's hard to do. Um, I also think for a lot of us, you can still be someone who's very, very devoted to your profession, even if you're not acting in that profession right now. I remember when my older daughter was a toddler, I was at a play date with a bunch of other moms. And I said to one of the other moms who I was pretty sure was home, full time. I said, do you have a profession? And she was like, thank you so much for asking. She's like, yes, I, for years and years and years taught English as a second language.
Dr. Lisa Damour, PhD (28:56):
And she said, I don't do it right now, but that's my profession. And I don't know that I would ask anyone under any time, but somehow the circumstances of this moment made me feel like that was a good conversation starter. And she said, I'm so glad you didn't ask me if I was working. And so there's lots of ways to think it through. But the other thing I would say is if you're a person with tremendous organizational skills and huge energy and time despair, because you're not caught in a professional life, that's demanding a huge amount of you. There are so many organizations in any community that need smart, capable people to donate their time, to do skilled work. And sometimes it's a school, but sometimes it's your local food bank or shelter. And so I would put on the table, if a person has an abundance of energy and skill and there's time that they would like to fill with things that do not involve parenting, just because the work's not paid doesn't mean it's not valuable. And in fact, some of the most valuable work we can do, doesn't come with a paycheck.
Kimberly Rittberg (30:03):
I think that's a great point. We have a homeless shelter in our neighborhood that a few years ago, I, but pre COVID started getting involved in and we there's volunteer overnight shifts. And I did one and I was like, wow, they, it is true when you do good. You feel good? I, I felt really good. And it's, um, that, that's a great point. And then I, I guess also I'd love to know sometimes I, I think, and I, I, I think this happens for some people feel this way more than others separating the, making your life built around what you want versus what you're supposed to want. You know, the external validation, uh, versus the internal contentment. Um, what are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Lisa Damour, PhD (30:45):
I think it's hard. I think there's a lot of scripts out there that are telling us what we're supposed to like or want my answer to this personally is actually kind of idiosyncratic. I, um, I've come to appreciate, I like a very, very high level of activity. Um, that's just how I'm built. And I, for years felt like I somehow was coming up short in my ability to do leisure the way you're supposed to do leisure that, you know, people would talk about like, oh, I just need a week off the grid. And like me in a beach, in a book, like, that's all I need. And there was something wildly freeing for me. And I think I was like, in my mid forties when I was like, that's not at all what it would appeal to me ever. Like my idea of a really good time is going on a hike and then reading my professional novel, like, you know, journals, things like that. And it was so freeing to think, oh, that's not my script for leisure. Like this dominant script for leisure doesn't appeal to me. And I I'm okay with that. So I think if people can question the script, see if it suits them, not feel bad, if it doesn't, that's a really good thing because you're the only one who can know what you really like and what leaves you feeling good.
Kimberly Rittberg (31:58):
Like, I, I personally found it hard to leave a career that was both satisfying, but also prestigious. But I said, you know, I really don't wanna commit five days a week. My industry is volatile mm-hmm <affirmative>. So there's also no promise that you give these years when your children are really small and need you and want you. You're not sure what you get back truly mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I committed myself to working for myself. I found it really challenging because the first question is always, what do you do? Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and there's this idea that you have this big fancy title, and now you're just like working for yourself and hustling for clients. And I just, I reassessed like how much it was external validation versus internal desires. Mm-hmm and I think that's, it's been a helpful process for me to separate out what is it that I want? What is it that brings me peace and joy and the pandemic for all the terrible things that has brought it has brought my family closer together. We have much more family time. We're much more out in nature. Dr. Lisa also wanted to remind us not to succumb, to comparison culture, focusing too much on what others are doing on social media.
Dr. Lisa Damour, PhD (33:06):
We shouldn't measure ourselves against what other people have going on in their lives. I think it's easy to, you know, look at the people around us and think, well, if they can do that, I should be able to do that. Or why, why aren't I not doing what they're doing? And, um, the beautiful thing, if you have a career and you have a profession, is that it means that your heart isn't something that you're invested in something. And so to go to what you just said, right? I think the question is, can you be your own yard stick? Can you decide for yourself what would be gratifying and have that be the measure of, you know, finger quote, success, as opposed to supposed to using other people and their lives, at least what you can see of their lives as your measure of success,
Kimberly Rittberg (34:00):
You can find more information and resources at drlisadamour.com. That's Dr. Lisa Damour. And it's all gonna be linked out in the show notes now to send you off on your day with a smile is a funny parenting story from Keri Setaro of the Momtourage podcast.
Keri Setaro (34:20):
Recently, I got a nose job, which Ashley's so tired of hearing me talk about. And I was trying to prepare my kid to be like, mommy's gonna have surgery. Her nose might look a little different P it looks exactly the same, but I was, I didn't know what it was gonna look like. So it's gonna look like this. And I was really trying to prep her cuz I was worried and she, uh, told her entire kindergarten class that mommy was getting a new nose. And then all of the teachers, well, two of like the five teachers were like me too, girl, me too. I'm on my third. But she like outed that I was getting my mommy get
Kimberly Rittberg (34:57):
Carrie and her co-host Ashley are truly hilarious. You can catch them at mom Tage podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. And it'll be linked out in the show notes.
Kimberly Rittberg (35:13):
Thank you so much for being here. Please follow the show at apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and share it with any other parents who will find it valuable because it's truly meant to be a resource. I also love getting feedback on what resonated with you so you can find us everywhere. Email me through www.kimrittberg.com. You could drop me at DM on Instagram, Kim Rittberg. I am really friendly or you can leave a comment in the podcast app. We love to hear from you, give us guest ideas topics you want us to cover your favorite tip that you heard anything mom's exit interview is produced by Henry street, media I'm Kim Berg, the host and executive producer. John Haitz is our editor and Aliza. Freelander is our producer and publicist.